Why I hate conservatives...

[3043]

The government of Utah is an example conservatism in government taken to its fruition.

Land of the free. Home of he brave.

I am so mad I can't think straight.

You CANNOT DO THIS IN MY COUNTRY!!!

I love it here. Im gonna try to fix it here but, shit, if I can't, Im gonna leave it here.

http://utah.indymedia.org/news/2005/08/11330.php

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/08/23/armed_swat_team_atta.html

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Dance_party_broken_up_by_police_in_Utah%2C_USA

[Raven]

According to a DJ at the event, "they presold 700 tickets and they expected up to 3,000 people total"
Man that would've been one hell of a rave!! Wish I was there, minus the police raid

[Nebula]

I just want to know what this has to do with conservatives. Because Utah HAS a lot of conservatives? It probably was some liberal douche bag who started the whole thing being like "those damn conservative ravers!! LETS GET THEM!"

I dont really care about ANY political party, honestly.

but to point the finger at the other just 'because' is plain ignorance and arrogance.

None the less... the police force used was completely unnecessary. Rather than attack the whole community, they simply could have gone up to the booth an asked to stop the event... force could have been used after that.

[McTucket]

lets throw down

[JimbobSS]

This may be a bad idea, but using our CS skills we can set up bunkers around the perimeter with 50 cal machine guns and host our own large music event.
when the cops try to rush in we can gun em all down and then run like mad cows!

hahah no, seriously though thats some pretty fucked up shit they did....What happened to the freedom in america? Fuck Iraq, fire these communist taliban police officers and their superiors.

[McTucket]

uh ok mr ignorant

[3043]

I just want to know what this has to do with conservatives. Because Utah HAS a lot of conservatives? It probably was some liberal douche bag who started the whole thing being like "those damn conservative ravers!! LETS GET THEM!"

Uh, ravers are not at all conservative.

No prob tho Neb, I will gladly tell you what this has to do with conservativism in the US government. I have to ask though, are you accusing me of being ignorant for using this label? Because the fate of my country is something near and dear to me and a matter I have given a lot of thought.

Keep in mind these are general definitions lifted from republican and democratic party websites, texts, and a coupla of college political texts.

Loosely:

Conservative = slow to change, cautious, even opposed to change, you believe in government intervention in the social or moral realm, but not in the economic realm;

Liberal = open-minded, progressive, it basically means you believe in government intervention in the economic realm, but not in the social or moral realm.

Conservatives believe in economic freedom, although most conservatives will not allow the economic freedom of a person's spending his own money to buy "pornography" or drugs, and many or most would forbid a person's using his own money for gambling or to hire a prostitute.They do, though, generally oppose taxation, especially income taxes and property taxes, even if their opposition comes in the form of opposing "excessive" taxes. Republicans have traditionally espoused less governement in your life but in the 80's that situation reversed and with the growth of the conservative movement it has invaded more and more of an americans way of life. Conservatives believe in using the force of government to impose their moral viewpoint. Punishment is the watchword for conservatives.




Liberals believe in economic regulation but often claim to believe in personal freedoms; they generally support taxation and spending tax money, but liberals have, for example, long opposed censorship. Tolerance is the watchword for liberals



How does all this relate to conservatism in Utah? Utah is famously one of the most repressive states in the union. For the last twenty years Utah has had a conservative republican governor.

This rave is a case in point.

Recall, Conservatives believe in the use of force to impose their moral view point.

The "rave" was legal. Permits were given for the event. The event was held on private property. Private securtity was used. The event was legit, head to toe.

What the Utah police did was nothing less than enforce the conservative government's moral view. And it also was totally illegal. They had no warrant, the used excessive force and essentially squashed a private, peaceful assembly and legal assembly simply bc they didnt agree with it morally. That is one of the most UNAMERICAN things I can think of and one of the things most dangerous to a democratic society.


It is the tiniest step from using brutal, government force to shut down a legal "rave" to squelching other events whose views contrary to those in power. Think Im wrong? I fucking hope I am.

Like I said, conservatism to its fruition. Fruition being unopposed conservatism.

I am a proud american and I realize the importance of the ENTIRE bill of rights not the bill of rights "lite" where you can pick and choose which freedoms mesh comfortably with those in power.


Its important to realize, however, that labels seperate and divide. Its for more important to define your own beliefs than adopt another groups wholesale. Its is sometimes difficult to fully think out an issue and then side with it. A good friend of mine is a true republican and we are often at ends but when we listed our own views on matters we shared many many similar opinioins. The greatest difference we found was basically money and how we felft the govt should collect it.

I am really neither republican or democrat but an American and see virtue in some of both parties' ideals. I do find, however, neo-conservatism utterly unamerican and repugnant.

[INANN]

I take it you consider yourself a "liberal". I disagree with your assessment of conservatives. Mostly I take issue with how you paint ultra-right wing agendas as conservative beliefs and centrist agendas as liberal. The reality is there is a broad political spectrum, with centrists and extremists on both sides. Many (and I would actually say most) "conservatives", myself included, tend to oppose certain items personally, but don't believe that the government belongs enforcing it.

Take pornography for example. I personally think that it is wrong, but I believe that the government's role in it should be limited to combatting child pornography and keeping it off the public airwaves where those who don't wish to see it don't have to. If you want to watch it, that is your choice. Your "right" to view it does not mean that I have to see it as I flip through public television channels or log on to the local library's computers.

I personally feel that it is the loss of religious values that has led to a lot of the problems that we face today, but that does not mean that my religion should be imposed on you. I also don't agree with the ACLU that placing religious artifacts such as a 10 commandments monument in a courthouse constitutes forcing religion on a person.

I tend somewhat towards libertarian beliefs in that I think that the federal government's role should be in preserving security in peaces, but should stay out of most everything else. The government's role should be to make sure your right to live life as you desire should only be infringed to the extent to prevent your actions from negatively affecting mine. I disagree with how the Republican's have expanded the size of government recently. Most conservatives that I know do.

I think that the government should play a role in the economy, but mostly to the stabilization of business and allowing competition to flourish. Monopolies are not competition. I do feel taxes should be limited, meaning the government should spend only what is necessary and attempt to tax in a manner that imposes the least burden on the economy.

I believe that the market has generally shown itself better at solving problems that government intervention and regulation has. I believe that most regulations that the government puts forth has unintended consequences that often outweigh the benefits of the regulation in the first place.

I also believe that states should be allowed to set some of their own laws and lifestyles. You label Utah as one of the most oppressive states, and say it is because it has had a conservative republican governor for the past 20 years. Utah is one of the more conservative states because the state is largely a homogenous body of religious conservatives (70% Mormon last i knew). They, in accordance with the principles of democracy, set the rules to reflect how they wish their lifestyle to be. I do not in any way condone the use of excessive force, and I am not referring to this event. If all of the events went down as it is claimed, I think that most conservatives would agree that the police were wrong in that case. There are numerous liberal states, in the Northeast and California, where lifestyles are different. Nevada allows prostitution and gambling. That is because that is how the electorate has chosen it to be.

I too am an independant. I personally see both parties as made of politicians. By that I mean that they will say virtually anything to get into power, anything else to stay there, and all the time line the pockets of themselves and their friends. The republicans and the democrats are both equally guilty. Case in point, the Republicans swept congress in 1994 on a wave of "fiscal conservatism" after the Democrats had gone on numerous spending sprees. The Republicans then proceeded to spend more and more when Bush gained control of the White house and they controlled everything. I generally feel that the country operates best when one party controls the white house and the other congress.

INANN

[Animal]

Who cares? Its all fucking bullshit these days from the democrats and republicans alike. Its all a big fucking show for the little people, nothing less, nothing more. I dont believe in any of this bullshit.

[Triple_6]

This is gonna get ugly.

Muahahah.

[Laroacha]

I was formulating a reply as I read the thread, but Inann seems to have pretty much covered it. I consider myself a "conservative" yet I'm atheist. I understand and appreciate the role that religion plays in civilized society mostly in that it controls alot of people who don't have the ability to control themselves without it. That video was an example of Fascism, not conservatism. Your labeling yourself "Liberal" I assume comes from a desire you have to lead a personal life totally unencumbered by civil authority, but what you seem to miss is that alot of people in the world can't be trusted to peacefully co-exist in such a world. They need the carrot and stick of a structured life to make them act in a civilized manner, and if they still refuse, there has to be that stick in place to knock them down. It's a lesson that the Europeans are just now learning about radical Muslims after years of allowing them to sponge off of their liberal immigration and welfare policy, it doesn't seem to make them sufficiently happy to prevent them from carrying out bombings on the countries that took them in.

Also in your definition of liberal and conservatives you stated that liberals believe that the government should be involved in regulating enterprise and conservatives don't. Two things, look what Prez. Bush's conservative administration has done to the radio industry after Janet Jackson whipped out a tit on TV, there is almost nothing entertaining on the radio anymore and there will be nothing when Stern goes to satellite in January and all radio stocks are in the crapper. As for liberals regulating companies, look at any government organization,,,,,,if it were not for unending amounts of taxpayer money, none of them would remain solvent for more than 6 months, and you want to trust these same pinheads with having more control over private companies? America's economy would be in shambles within' months of total Democrat control. Liberal democrats are Socialists, pure and simple. Name me one Socialist nation that has ever attained the wealth and prosperity of the US. None! Our poor people would be wealthy in most socialist countries. What we need is what this county was founded on, people working together for the total good of the country, what we have now and have had for the majority of my lifetime is polarized lifetime politicians whose every move is politically and idiologically motivated, just posturing for their next run at office. That my friend is the sickness that is going to eventually bring down this great nation of ours.

[Nebula]

Who cares? Its all fucking bullshit these days from the democrats and republicans alike. Its all a big fucking show for the little people, nothing less, nothing more. I dont believe in any of this bullshit.

Agreed.

[ioScream]

It really comes down to yin and yang.. we, in our current state of civilization, need the difference in views and opinions to survive. I don't think either have it all right, nor or either all wrong.. but who am I? Nothing more than the next generation of failures.. though, I hope our children figure it out earlier.. blah blah blah.. im drunkish, and why are there so many political debuts on these forums.. oh, thats right we are all "adults"...


A.R. is sooo FUCKING right though.. it has become nothing more than a puppet show to amuse and comfort the masses, the ones with "the carrot and stick" that need the "reassurance" that everything is going to be "okay".. guess what? we are heading toward our own demise.. and i cant wait.. i want front row passes.. I wanna see it all go down.. mother please flush it all away.

[El Duderino]

INANN and Laroacha covered what I was going to say. Mainly the socialist thing.

Friends and politics don't mix, so ....yeah.

[McTucket]

i drank a couple beers for u guys, laroach and ina

[sylverarrow]

I agree AR. And that's about it for politics, imo.

[3043]

Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

What happened in Utah (and is happening in other parts of the country)isnt/wasnt fascism. It may have been fascist like actions. But it was, like I said, modern conservatism taken to its fruition.

Sadly, there are some things that neocons and fascism have in common. You could say that the seedlings of fascism are found in Ultraconservatism:

a policy of belligerent nationalism (love it it or leave it, and the like)
racism
suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship
stringent socioeconomic controls

Want or feel like demanding examples of the above? I have lots but I will offer none unless I think your are genuinely interested.


BTW, Im not a "liberal" or even a democrat. I am a gun toting and proud american. The election of Reagan is often noted as the first time in modern times that voting straight party ticket figured into an election. Neocons "force" this type of voting, not democrats. When I first turned 18 my plan was to vote for who I thought was the best candidate. Neocons have made that impossible.

I dont like to see my country disrespected by those in office. Those fucks in washington work FOR ME, not the other way around. They arent doing me a favor by "being" president or senator. I have done them a favor by electing them. If they disagree, they can go the fuck home to private life.

What makes my country great is that it often does or tries to do the right thing. I am convinced, beyond a reasonable doubt, that those in power now are doing far more damage to our country than has ever been done. And they are doing so while lying to america, shredding our rights and basically using the bill of rights as a doormat.

If you are part of the conservative movement and my comments hurt or offend you I'm sorry. I was mad but my anger was not directed at you but at "neo-cons" or "ultraconservatives" who are probably at the root of most of this. If you are a conservative look and see, your party has been hijacked by these nuts and they dont at all represent you or any other republican.



Though i was pissed when i started this my intention was to ventilate my feelings and not to have an actual discussion. Im not interested in changing anyone's mind who isnt interested in discussing things. Likewise, Im not interested in hearing opinions to the contrary unless that person is open to discussing them.

[3043]

Land of the free because of the brave. I had a patient today who's son was back from Iraq until January. Do you know why she was my patient? Bc in three months her son would be back in harms way. Her joy that he was home had translated into instant anxiety when she learned he had to go back. In the ER she kept asking anyone, mostly me though bc I was her nurse, "why does he have to go there?" or just "why".

I have a strict policy of honesty with my adult patients. In eight years I have lied to my patients only three times and I recall each lie vividly. I couldnt lie to this woman today. I told her that I had no idea.

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
3043

[Laroacha]

Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship

The second quote is what happened in Utah, and it's a direct copy of your Fascism definition, so in your mind, how does it become conservitism?

[Laroacha]

In the ER she kept asking anyone, mostly me though bc I was her nurse, "why does he have to go there?" or just "why".

Because "he" for whatever reasons had joined a military service. I to this day would gladly serve and die for my country, if some worrying mother doesn't understand why her son might want to serve his country, then maybe she needs a tour in Iran to figure it out. If I died in the service of my country and my mom did the shit that that bitch in Crawford is doing now, I would turn the fuck over in my grave right now. Sorry her son died, but she's a fucking traitor.

[3043]

How is the govt's actions in Utah an example of extreme conservatism?

Modern Conservatism believe's in and here I quote myself from ten posts ago or so, direct "govt intervention in social the social realm".

Supressing a rave, who's hedonistic culture flies directly in the face of the dominate themes of conservative government and an example of "intervention". "Fascists" didnt order a legal assembly to disperse, force a private land owner off her own land and use over the top violence to make it happen. The government of Utah did. The conservative, republiclan government did.

[Laroacha]

So do you think that rave's contribute to the betterment of Western civilization? If yes tell me how. I'm all for a good party, and I've done a ton of drugs and other stupid shit, but it doesn't shock me that it's socially unacceptable behaviour and if I were to get fucked up in the process of doing said partying, I would have no-one to blame but myself. It's like the assholes that talk shit to a cop and then are all suprised when they get the crap beat out of em.

[Raven]

whether or not raves contribute to society is totally irrelevant.. I think organized religion doesn't contribute much either, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna go around beating up people in churches, telling them to go home. People should have the right to do what they want as long as they don't interfere with others.

[Laroacha]

OOOOOk,,,,,,

Correct me if I'm wrong and lets try to connect the dots........

Raves, let's dissect them.

Good music, lots of dancing, seems great so far.

Lets drop some E, Meth, Coke, whatever, you choose, and this still is cool because you're only hurting yourself right?

Well, actually no. The tentacles of the production, marketing and use of illicit drugs effect everyone on this planet. To name a few effects on the general population we can list:

1: The producers of Coke control huge militia's in S. America that carry out tons of murders, and intimidate huge populations of several countries. edit: not to beat a dead horse, but Islamic terrorist aren't above making a ton of cash on drugs either, and the possiblity of them shipping tainted drugs into western countries has to be huge. endedit:

2: In N. America dealers of said drugs invade mostly poorer neighborhoods, and intimidate the residents and bring down property values and generally make life suck.

3: The users of said drugs may get themselves hooked and turn to many forms of crime to support their habits, and when they do finally try to get away from whatever drug they are hooked on then usually the taxpayer pay's for their most likely to failed rehab. When they fail rehab, they end up homeless and sponging off of social programs and you see them every day on street corners in every city begging for money for their next high. From my drug use, I would bet that better than 60% of casual users never follow this scenario, but even with 20 to 40% falling in the cracks, it's a huge burden on society.

Now at this point you are saying that just because it's a rave doesn't mean it's all about drug use, and to this I gotta say, "Yea it is". I've been to rave's, that's the major draw that brought me and most people I met at them. To think that cops raiding a rave is out of the question is just goofy. Their reasons to some might seem like religious fervor gone crazy, but I think the social implications of not enforcing moral norms more than outweigh the harm. I agree that the tactics used in Utah were reprehensible and brought shame upon that state, but the underlieing reasons for the breakup of the party were justified.

Still looking for the victim? it's you silly.

[McTucket]

hes on a roll...

[Raven]

dude every discussion with you puts people on the defensive.. I like intelligent DISCUSSIONS, but this crap is just not fun :boid:

[Laroacha]

Im sorry Raven, I'm gonna chill,,,,,,,,no harm intended.

[Maull]

weed is tha way mofos! its relatively harmless and *mind-expanding* .. i smoke weed. yeah...so...im a conservative.

[Raven]

weed is not enough for some of us thrill-seekers.. how can one ever be satisfied with a lesser when there's a greater out there? It's like being satisfied with flipping burgers at McD's when you could run your own restaurant chain.

[McTucket]

almost...

[Maull]

idk dude..i never had the urge to try anything "harder" than weed. i think deep down i unserstand the risks are too great therefore i dont give in

[Nebula]

yeah... I only smoke the herbal.

I have tried some other things... have decided they are too expensive, and too dangerous.

[McTucket]

exactly...i think its up to the person though.... u only live once... do what you want

[Raven]

i don't know how you smokers can talk about 'dangerous' like that.. tobacco is way more harmful than occasional E or shrooms
If you do it intelligently, you'll be fine. It's only those junkie kids that get addicted and overdozed and shit..
There are stories going around of university professors doing coke recreationally their whole lives, without any adverse effects.
I was taking biological psychology and the prof told us that he has several friends who take Ecstasy on a regular basis - he knew them before they started and again, he says there are no noticeable differences.
None of the few tests that were done on use of E and shrooms yielded any major side-effects from prolonged use.
Basically, just like with any mind-altering substance, you just have to be smart about it and you'll be fine.
Try drinking 10 cups of dark coffee one after another and see what happens.. but only an idiot would do that.. right?

[sylverarrow]

True Raven, if you are responsible about it you'll be fine. You only hear about the horror stories of the people that misuse and overdose, so that's why it's announced bad for the fact we have others out there that are dumb and disrespectful and end up dying or completely changing them for life. Like those that like to chase their first high or want to get higher and then stoke and die, what did they suspect? Your body can take only but so much of one thing. I have done some harsh things, as some will call it, and I'm somewhat normal still.... :wink:

[Nebula]

well, dont get me wrong.. I dont "look down" on people who have done them. I just have heard the stories about how if you get a bad pill, or a bad "cut" etc...you could potentially kill yourself on the 1st high. I AM friends (or actually former friends) of some people who have become junkies.. and I am not saying the drugs had anything to do with it.. perhaps it was just the people they started hanging out with.. they started acting a little crazy. no.. they wouldnt flip out for no reason or anything like that.. but their ideas about life, friends, and all of that got way distorted.. and it made me not want to be around them anymore... and they felt the same about me.

Again,... dont get me wrong.. have your fun. I just consider myself to be too inexperienced with anything much harder than what I have already experimented with.. and I dont really care to be enlightened. However, that is the main reason why I dont touch anything like that... so its kind of like a loop.

[sylverarrow]

You see Nebula, that is not being responsible with them if you let the drugs control your life. That my friend is call addiction and they need to realize their problem for them to come back to reality. To me it's the drugs, friends, and their addictive personality that has cause them to be like that. Knowing when to stop is the key.

[ioScream]

I agree, Raven. However, it's those people who do overdose and/or become addicted that ruin it for everyone else. Unfortunately, that's how rules are always made, from pre-school to government.. you have certain liberties or rights, and if enough people abuse them, they get regulated or completely taken away. I've personally done several drugs, and loved them all. I don't feel I've damaged myself in anyway, if anything, I think I've learned a few things about myself.

As far as LaRoacha's comment about serving and dying for their country, I personally feel that everyone should have to serve for 2 years, like they do in other countries. I personally have not, but would if asked. My only problem right now, is that I don't completely agree with the war, or the actions my government has taken, but I feel it is my obligation to my country to serve if asked. Well, it actually IS my obligation to my country, since I was 18.

And to go back a few pages on Inann's post, where he speaks about the "loss of religious values that has led to a lot of the problems that we face today", I disagree. I personally feel that religion itself has little to do with it, it's the moral values that a lot religions teach that is missing. That should be up to the parents, not the churchs. Unfortunately, we've had a HUGE increase in young parents that didn't/don't care enough to really implant these ideals into their childs' reality, nor do most of them have the capacity. I also feel that religion has been a major motivating factor in this war, at least on the T-side ;). I don't even know anymore what "our" motivating factor was... something about "Liberty" and "Freedom"?

[sylverarrow]

Control in my opinion. And yes Religion is the what's driving the 'T'side', as you put it. Always has been.

[McTucket]

As far as LaRoacha's comment about serving and dying for their country, I personally feel that everyone should have to serve for 2 years, like they do in other countries.

i dont think it should be manditory cuz then we wouldnt have the support that we do today, of our soldiers...... i DO think people should think about joining, though, it instills great ideals, great leadership skills, money for college, and is overall a great experience(except for those pussies who couldnt hack it through boot camp, or the pussies in the air force, not including thunder). your patriotism would greatly increase, and you would respect your life, other lives, your country, and other values... i feel my life is much more important..... i started drinking way too early

[Raven]

well, dont get me wrong.. I dont "look down" on people who have done them. I just have heard the stories about how if you get a bad pill, or a bad "cut" etc...you could potentially kill yourself on the 1st high.

You could get HIV or herpes after your first time having sex or getting a blowjob.. doesn't stop too many people though, does it :wink:

[Nebula]

very good point.. but there is protection

and usually if a girl has a lot of blisters and soars on her mouth...

I'm not going to take any brains from her.

Which pretty much just brings me back to the fact that I am just inexperienced with it.. I dont know the 'tell-tale' signs of something that might be wrong with it... know what I mean?

[Sammie]

military service should NOT be mandatory. fuck that. i would not serve if called upon.

however, there are a lot of other ways you can help your country and your neighbors.

I wouldn't be opposed to having mandatory community service.

I think it would be great to have high income people forced to work the garbage route one week a year or clean sewers...something along those lines.

I wouldn't necessarily look forward to doing it, but I think it would definitely give me a new perspective on things.

But welding a gun and taking lives is something I would never do. Its against my moral principals and the government has no right to make me do anything that would jeapordize my faith...regardless of what it is.

[McTucket]

yup... thats why america is great.. go fuck yourself scream

[THE_PACIFIST]

I think military service should stay voluntary...but if it needs to be as in the numbers drop to low then i can see why they would need to make it mandatory...I love the military and always will...will i spend my wholelife in it I don't know but I give kudos to anyone who gives up a section of their life to serve

[Raven]

I love the military and always will...will i spend my wholelife in it

Didn't think I'd ever hear anyone say that..

[Sammie]

masochists

:p

[McTucket]

his dad was military so hes been around it his whole life... open up your fuckin eyes

[Laroacha]

What I don't understand is why they won't evaluate us over the age, prior military fucks in a time of war and let us go back in to serve. It's fucking asinine. An arbitrary age that some pencil pusher chose should prevent the services from using assets that they paid good fucking money to train. What the fuck is that all about????????

[McTucket]

yeah dude i guarantee you id rather have you in my fire team, rather than some of the retards around here..