Rehnquist is Dead, let the battle begin

[Laroacha]

Here we go boy's and girls, the battle lines are being formed, now we go for not one but two seats on the court. This outta be entertaining. The Demi's are all huddled up in a circlejerk trying to figure out how to force Pres. Bush to appoint another socialist to the bench.

Oh yea, and R.I.P. Justice Rehnquist

[Sammie]

Damn that Pat Robertson!
He did it; He prayed long and hard enough, god finally answered his prayers for another seat on the surpeme court and killed Rehnquist

lol. oh how i loath that pat robertson!!


:P

edit: however, I am a bit terrified of what religious fucknut they will try to appoint.

This country is going to hell.


If one more conservative christians values person get a major seat of authority, im moving to canada. I can stand all these religious zealots wanting to govern everyone with their god and their morality. It makes me want to puke.

Get GOD out of the freaking politics already. Its a scarey path.

[Laroacha]

lol

[RustyBrownSheriffsBadge]

Come on guys have a little faith. just trust that there will be a intelligent choice put up for nomination.

[Sammie]

lol


trust is earned, not granted

[McTucket]

im not gonna talk about this, just gonna say its gonna be an interesting 3 years in the judicial branch....

[RustyBrownSheriffsBadge]

What do you mean Tuckey?

[Laroacha]

he means that you are going to spend 3 years in the judicial branch,,,,,,,which to my understanding means you'll have Robert's branch impaled in you for 3 years,,,,,,but that's my interpretation of Tuck's statement,,,,,,I could be mistucken.

[McTucket]

:surprised :surprised :surprised :surprised :surprised :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :smile: :smile: :wink: :wink: :wink:

[Sammie]

supreme court seats are life time positions. it will be a lot longer than 3 years

[McTucket]

yeah, but i meant who he nominates, who fights it, etc... bush's term is 3 years..

[Sammie]

but the damage he does will last a lifetime :D

[McTucket]

heh no comment

[Sammie]

wussie :D

ha! and they nominate the noobie for chief justice. wth? seems like a more senior judge would have been nominated rather than the guy who hasnt even seen his first day of work at his new post.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/05/roberts.nomination/index.html

[THE_PACIFIST]

true true...lol you exxon thing sammie...I was driving last night and saw gas for 3.99 and 9/10....I think I'm gonna buy a segway....lol

[Laroacha]

ha! and they nominate the noobie for chief justice. wth? seems like a more senior judge would have been nominated rather than the guy who hasnt even seen his first day of work at his new post.

Yea, I think he did that to piss off the dem's who were pressing for him to ask O'Connor to stay and be chief justice. It's gotta erk Thomas and Scalia though that they didn't get the job, but I imagine they would be a harder sell based upon their known ultra conservative tendencys.

[McTucket]

i think seniority should be considered for that post

[RustyBrownSheriffsBadge]

I 2nd!

[RustyBrownSheriffsBadge]

No I think it should be roach!

[McTucket]

hahahah hell yeah

[Laroacha]

No I think it should be roach!

Talk about the country being fucked up,,,,,,,make me chief justice and you can all hang this shit up. I can talk a good line of conservative bullshit, but if I had any real power, I'd be one corrupt fucking dick. I think my government would be more along the lines of the Mafia's setup, and that would equal lot's of bodies floating in the Mississippi river. I only back a conservative agenda because I think in the long run, it will be better for the country as a whole, but don't ever think I could actually have the self control not to enjoy the fruits of corruption.

[RustyBrownSheriffsBadge]

Then you would fit right in.

[JimbobSS]

This is off the topic, and I don't care, I had to get one last poke at pres. bush before I shut my mouth forever. Thanks for raising school loan interest rates, and taxes on those loans you fuckin uneducated inbread FUCKING SON OF A BITCH......that jackass better pay the difference in my payments or I'll have his balls in a glass jar on top of my Toolbox.

thats all.... :biggrin:

[HHBizzle]

Hopefully all the political pressure bush is having now will "help" him make a good choice here.
And Yes, Pat Robertson is FUCKIN SATAN :evil: and he lives in my city. What good christian would pray for 2 justices to die to leave and also ask for a human being to be assasinated, that south american commie. I mean, its 2005, you dont publicly ask christ and bush to assasinate someone, HOW FUCKED UP IS THAT.

[RustyBrownSheriffsBadge]

This is off the topic, and I don't care, I had to get one last poke at pres. bush before I shut my mouth forever. Thanks for raising school loan interest rates, and taxes on those loans you fuckin uneducated inbread FUCKING SON OF A BITCH......that jackass better pay the difference in my payments or I'll have his balls in a glass jar on top of my Toolbox.

thats all.... :biggrin:


Holy Balls settle down Jim. With the money you'lle make from your better job with that education you should be able to afford it. Or just sell some crack!

[sylverarrow]

This is off the topic, and I don't care, I had to get one last poke at pres. bush before I shut my mouth forever. Thanks for raising school loan interest rates, and taxes on those loans you fuckin uneducated inbread FUCKING SON OF A BITCH......that jackass better pay the difference in my payments or I'll have his balls in a glass jar on top of my Toolbox.

thats all.... :biggrin:
Sell your car fool. Gas alone is more then your loan payments bitch!

[McTucket]

This is off the topic, and I don't care, I had to get one last poke at pres. bush before I shut my mouth forever. Thanks for raising school loan interest rates, and taxes on those loans you fuckin uneducated inbread FUCKING SON OF A BITCH......that jackass better pay the difference in my payments or I'll have his balls in a glass jar on top of my Toolbox.

thats all.... :biggrin:


if a liberal was in office, youd be paying much more.....

[JimbobSS]

LoL, I'll never sell that car heh. But I think its pathetic to take money from people trying to educate themselves. I guess I shouldn't be that mad, even though I'm paying $10 more per month now, I'll just accept the fact that the government taxes EVERYTHING, and I wouldn't be suprised that even by taking a shit in the bathroom, the government in some way makes money from that. :rolleyes:

oh, and the real money never rolls in the first few years after you get out of school....after I have more experience I'll be making plenty, but by then the loan will be payed for.

[HHBizzle]

This is off the topic, and I don't care, I had to get one last poke at pres. bush before I shut my mouth forever. Thanks for raising school loan interest rates, and taxes on those loans you fuckin uneducated inbread FUCKING SON OF A BITCH......that jackass better pay the difference in my payments or I'll have his balls in a glass jar on top of my Toolbox.

thats all.... :biggrin:

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[Laroacha]

LoL, I'll never sell that car heh. But I think its pathetic to take money from people trying to educate themselves. I guess I shouldn't be that mad, even though I'm paying $10 more per month now,

Dude, did you sign up for a student "LOAN"?????? I think you did. If you don't like the terms than default on the loan, I will take them at least a few years to track your ungratefull ass down and at that point, if you still have no money than just change jobs, because otherwise they will garnish your wages. Did you expect that the US government was going to educate you for free? What did your parents do to prepare for your education?????? Apparently nothing based on you're, "I want the gov. to give me shit free post." If you have a beef with anyone, it should be Mommy and Daddy..............let's see the post about that!

[JimbobSS]

ya, it is a student loan, and no I didn't have any college fund. Its not breaking me to the point that I can't pay it, but the money I have to spend on paying more of the loan off is now gone because the interest rate has changed(besides, I thought it was a fixed rate loan). Either way, they(the company that now owns my loan, e.i. wachovia) told me that the pres. can change the rate on the loans once a year, or leave it be however he sees fit.
SOOooooo, as if school didn't cost enough already, what with the huge increase to the cost of living, what possible excuse could he have to mess with it? Thats what I want to know.....why couldn't he take more money from married people, same thing right? but whatever, it just bothers me that I have to pitch out more money because someone is spending to much.

[McTucket]

blow me... im just glad roach is here to debate with you guys cuz i got tired of responding to your lame whinings about how Bush is horrible, etc

[Laroacha]

I just heard that the nat. gas prices are going to be 70% more this winter than last,,,,,,,it's fucked up for me too, but what ya gonna do? It's life and some parts of it suck. And please don't think I'm only saying this cause I'm some fatcat with a ton of cash...........I live week to week. I was looking forward to the savings I got in winter to make up for the assfucking I get every summer in electric bills,,,,,,,but it appears that's not going to happen. I don't blame anyone but mother fuckin' nature. Isn't that unusual?????????

[Sammie]

if we have the funds to "liberate" other countries we should have the funds to educate our own people.

We pay enough in taxes to afford to educate the future of the country. We just chose to spend it on other things.

And the rate changes are controled by the Fed, the federal reserve, which is an independant agency of the government. Its not the government, its a quasi-privately owned company that has total control over the economy and money flows. I could go on and on about the Fed, don't get me started.

People whine about Bush b/c he is the face of the government. That's what happens when you are the top person, all the responsiblity falls on you in the end. No one really believes Bush is repsonsible for everything that goes on. Hell I dont even think Bush really does anything other than photo op's, long winded speeches full of useless rhetoric and take vacations. But he is the "face" of our government so he is the punching bag.

[McTucket]

No one really believes Bush is repsonsible for everything that goes on.

Yes they do... look at some of the posts around here... i know you're intelligent enough, but some others dont seem it...

[Sammie]

you have to admit, he is such an easy target. Its really kind of sad, like picking on the retarded kid in school.

:p

[RustyBrownSheriffsBadge]

[QUOTE=Sammie]if we have the funds to "liberate" other countries we should have the funds to educate our own people.

We pay enough in taxes to afford to educate the future of the country. We just chose to spend it on other things.





Thats BS. Why should I pay for someones education? I already have to pay to feed people who can't afford it. (or to lazy to get a job, or look for a better one) House people who can't afford a place to live. And pay my own wages. (I am in the Army) Now you want me to pay for education? I already do that on a state level. As for helping other countries to be liberated? Why the fuck not? Are we not free? Did we not get help originally?
Why not give someone the same that we got? I would much rather pay for someones freedom they can't buy themselves, than some spoiled little kids education which he would probably piss away. Plus if everyone had a college degree it would be no better than a high school diploma.

[Sammie]

but you have no problem paying for corporate welfare that is pissed away in frivilous speading?
The funny thing is, corporate welfare is way more taxing on you than people on welfare (regardless if its warrented or abused). Yet it is never even spoken about.
You, as a middle class citizen, will never get tax relief from the poor. Only from the rich....corporate conglumerates.
The middle class supports the poor AND the rich. Why only point the finger of blame in one direction?

And I assume we are building schools and helping educate people in Iraq. Are they less likely to piss it away than our own citizens?

just curious


here is some info on John Roberts. Clearly a bias view as its a democracynow.org interview but none the less very informative

http://play.rbn.com/?url=demnow/demnow/demand/2005/sept/video/dnB200509-roberts-special.rm&proto=rtsp

[Laroacha]

Sammie, I'm going to word this in a way that means less typing for me, and more for you.

Explain to me what your ideal goverment would look like. I.E. social policy, foreign policy, domestic policy, tax policy. When formulating this, try to explain how the interactions will work such as tax policies impact on social policy etc. If you don't feel like starting from scratch, then start with whatever countries policy comes closest to what you think is right, and then expand on changes you would make to it.

Your manifesto so to speak.

[RustyBrownSheriffsBadge]

Of course there are flaws in the system but what system is perfect. The only thing I was trying to get across is that a college education is that you work for. Not something that should be a right. Thats why it yelds higher paying jobs and more prestige and such.

[Sammie]

Sammie, I'm going to word this in a way that means less typing for me, and more for you.



Explain to me what your ideal goverment would look like. I.E. social policy, foreign policy, domestic policy, tax policy. When formulating this, try to explain how the interactions will work such as tax policies impact on social policy etc. If you don't feel like starting from scratch, then start with whatever countries policy comes closest to what you think is right, and then expand on changes you would make to it.



Your manifesto so to speak.

lol, that's one hell of a task you have asked of me. Can I ask you to back up the same? Can you explain the intricate details currently at work in our social policy, foreign policy, domestic policy, and tax policy and why it is not only the best system but also has no room for improvement or critisism.

I'll throw that ball in your court.

Now as far as a generalization, I will say this:



No change will be effective until there is economic reform

The economic institutions must change in order for other institutions to follow suit. What does that economic plan look like? I don't know. I'm not an economic scholar. Please do not come back w/ you have to have a solution in order to be critical. It’s a fallacious argument. You have to point out the problem in order to find solutions. Criticism comes first, resolution follows



No system is perfect and I don’t expect mankind to ever develop a utopia, but it doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvements


It’s our fundamental duty as patriotic citizens to be critical of the government. Governments have power and money. Power and money lead to corruption. It needs to be kept in check. I think we have done a poor job with that, in general. Patriotism is not accepting/settling for whatever your government does b/c you are a loyal citizen. That is nationalism and there is a huge difference.



We need to do two fundamental things first in order to start making improvements in society[/color]

1. Abandon the shallow 2 sided ideology of left and right[/color]

2. Stop the over abundant mind set of holding 2 convictions simultaneously even though they completely contradict each other. Its irrational ideology and must be addressed.[/color]





Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
[Thomas Jefferson

[Sammie]

Of course there are flaws in the system but what system is perfect. The only thing I was trying to get across is that a college education is that you work for. Not something that should be a right. That’s why it yields higher paying jobs and more prestige and such.


I agree that "that which is earned and not received" is more valuable. But even if we had a system in place that allowed people to go to school without having to take on the financial burden, you would still have to earn it. If you don't cut the mustard (grades/gpa) then you can not continue in the program.

It is advantageous for our country to educate our people, as many as we can. It is what will allow our country to stay on the cutting edge and maintain its economic status.

It’s illogical to want to remain the world super power and yet not use the resources you have to educate your populous. This goes back to my argument of holding two ideas simultaneously that are in total contradiction to each other.

If we don’t ensure that our people are educated then we can not and will not maintain our status while other countries educate the majority of there people with great earnest in order to compete with us in a global market

[Laroacha]

I'm just trying to get a guage on what your real leanings are, because I suspect that you tend to lean more towards the realm of socialism, than capitalism. You have never ending criticisms of all American economic institutions, yet never any praise for the accomplishments of the same institutions. We live in the most prosperous and spoiled country in the world, that didn't happen under Lenins plan, it happened with capitalism. As you say, nothing is perfect and I agree with that, but I make it a point to spend more of my time looking at the positive aspects of my country and less so the negative and I almost never miss an opportunity to shout my praises for this country. I can't anywhere in my memory remember you once sticking up for or praising any aspect of our country. Truthfully, conversing with you is more akin to talking to a Canadian or some Euro trash than an American. I spent alot of time oversea's in the 80's and had the pleasure of talking with alot of envious Euro trash who reveled in bashing the US. I never until the last 10 years thought I would have to partake in the same bullshit conversations with an American.

You state that complaining is a positive national pastime, yet it's appears that without suggesting an educated alternative to whatever you are complaining about, it just gains the appearance of bitching for the sake of bitching.

Lastly, if Me being proud of being an American is Nationalism, than so be it. Number Me Nationalist.

[RustyBrownSheriffsBadge]

Rock on Roach! Nothin wrong with being proud of our country. Because it is what we make it.

[Laroacha]

http://www.nationalreview.com/seipp/seipp200509080822.asp

[Sammie]

I'm just trying to get a guage on what your real leanings are, because I suspect that you tend to lean more towards the realm of socialism, than capitalism. You have never ending criticisms of all American economic institutions, yet never any praise for the accomplishments of the same institutions. We live in the most prosperous and spoiled country in the world, that didn't happen under Lenins plan, it happened with capitalism. As you say, nothing is perfect and I agree with that, but I make it a point to spend more of my time looking at the positive aspects of my country and less so the negative and I almost never miss an opportunity to shout my praises for this country. I can't anywhere in my memory remember you once sticking up for or praising any aspect of our country. Truthfully, conversing with you is more akin to talking to a Canadian or some Euro trash than an American. I spent alot of time oversea's in the 80's and had the pleasure of talking with alot of envious Euro trash who reveled in bashing the US. I never until the last 10 years thought I would have to partake in the same bullshit conversations with an American.

You state that complaining is a positive national pastime, yet it's appears that without suggesting an educated alternative to whatever you are complaining about, it just gains the appearance of bitching for the sake of bitching.

Lastly, if Me being proud of being an American is Nationalism, than so be it. Number Me Nationalist.
ok here is the deal La Roacha. You are right back at it again suggesting that if im not a capitalist then I must be a socialist. The world is not 2 dimensional. So stop with the labeling.

My background is social and political philosophy with an emphasis on deductive, inductive and symbolic logic.

Yes you accuse me of always pointing out the negatives and I am accusing you of burying your head in the sand and not acknowledging anything that is remotely negative.

Criticism is a national pastime. It’s our patriotic duty and ist a hell of a lot more important than running around praising all the time. You shouldn’t have to constantly praise what is expected. It is much more critical to uncover problems and expose them than it is to go around butt kissing every little aspect that should be a given.

I consider myself patriotic. I love my county. That is why I feel so compassionately about seeing it fucked by the corporate machine. Our founding fathers and our greatest leaders had great fear for our republic/freedom b/c of the inherent corruption in the developing economic system that was arising from the centralized banking system and the creation of the modern corporation. They feared it more than war in most cases and openly admitted as much.

If you truly love what your country was founded on and the ideology of America than you can not possibly support some of the directions we have taken over the last century...specifically due to the cause and effect that such a system has on our founding principals.

[McTucket]

I consider myself patriotic. I love my county.


lol really?? just your county??

[Laroacha]

lol,,,,,,,,,,county goverment must be in order over there,,,,,,,,

I'm comin' back in a bit Sammie, gotta go reload on beer.

[Sammie]

lol really?? just your county??

yea its all mine.....lol

come on tucket, you can do better than that

[Laroacha]

My background is social and political philosophy with an emphasis on deductive, inductive and symbolic logic.

I'm kinda slow, WTF does that mean?

Yes you accuse me of always pointing out the negatives and I am accusing you of burying your head in the sand and not acknowledging anything that is remotely negative.

I admit that things aren't perfect as witnessed by :
As you say, nothing is perfect and I agree with that, but I make it a point to spend more of my time looking at the positive aspects of my country and less so the negative
as I said, I "choose" to concentrate on the positive and if I have an answer to a problem I see, then I'm more than quick to propose that solution.

Criticism is a national pastime. It’s our patriotic duty and ist a hell of a lot more important than running around praising all the time.

Call me an old fogy, but most Americans used to be proud of being Americans. Once again, let me let me state that complaining without any suggestion on how to fix the complaint is purely bitching to hear yourself bitch. It smacks of hating your situation and location. If you want respect then do some research on what pisses you off, and submit detailed and viable plans to change what you want to change. Hell, go to MoveOn.org and see if you think their plans are better than what we got and submit them. I doubt they would be to any clear thinking person, but who knows.

Our founding fathers and our greatest leaders had great fear for our republic/freedom b/c of the inherent corruption in the developing economic system that was arising from the centralized banking system and the creation of the modern corporation

I laughingly doubt that the founding fathers were even alive to see the creation of the centralized banking system.............unless they lived to about 180. All they knew was that the tax systems of the old country were corrupt and the system they laid out in this country were not to follow the ways of Europe. That system held up well until the great depression when the US gov. deemed it necessary to implement an income tax. (which at the time was acceptabley (sp.?) tiny) Since that time our government has gone off of the deep end with tax and spend and now we are faced with the same situation that we faced in the times of the Boston tea party. We are being taxed to point of civil unrest. I believe we will change this without violence, but with threats of loss of power. Basically what I'm saying is that I acknowledge that we have major financial problems, but that doesn't change my image of my country, I still love the US, and wouldn't change for anything in the world.

[Sammie]

Oh im so going to get you. im in the middle of a battle in gw right now but im coming back for your ass Laroacha. :P

I'm gonna get you sucka!

[Laroacha]

hehe,,,,,,come on baby!

[McTucket]

acceptably

[Sammie]

My background is social and political philosophy with an emphasis on deductive, inductive and symbolic logic.

I'm kinda slow, WTF does that mean?

Definition:
Political philosophy is the study of the fundamental questions about the state, government, politics, property, law and the enforcement of a legal code by authority: what they are, why they are needed, what makes a government legitimate, what rights and freedoms it should protect and why, what form it should take and why, what the law is, and what duties citizens owe to a legitimate government, if any, and when it may be legitimately overthrown - if ever.

Two key aspects are the political economy by which property rights are defined and access to capital is regulated, and the rules of truth and evidence that determine judgments in the law. Each theory of criminal justice is derived in part from some such view of these. Source : http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/political+philosophy (http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/political+philosophy) ... Also provides a history of political philosophy. Philosophy, in general, is the history of thought.

Deductive reasoning/Inductive logic: is the process of reasoning from the general to the specific. Deductive reasoning is supported by deductive logic, for example:

From general propositions:

All ravens are black birds.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction
To specific propositions such as:

This bird is a raven, therefore it is black.
This billiard ball will move when struck with a cue.
In contrast to inductive reasoning, the conclusions of deductive reasoning are as valid as the initial assumption.

Deductive reasoning was first described by the ancient Greek philosophers such as Aristotle.

Symbolic Logic. Any logical system that abstracts the form of statements away from their content in order to establish abstract criteria of consistency and validity.

I said, I "choose" to concentrate on the positive and if I have an answer to a problem I see, then I'm more than quick to propose that solution.

And I said that I disagree with your approach. I think it is more beneficial to society/mankind to concentrate your efforts on improving the social structure. Also I already asked you not to use the “if you don’t have an answer to the problem then you have no right to bitch. It’s a fallacious argument…….it holds no water…i.e. it’s an unsound debate.

Call me an old fogy, but most Americans used to be proud of being Americans. Once again, let me let me state that complaining without any suggestion on how to fix the complaint is purely bitching to hear yourself bitch. It smacks of hating your situation and location.
Refer to the above reply. I call Bullshit. And your “we used to be proud to be Americans” is feel good rhetoric that I would expect from a wimpy “liberal”



Quote:

Criticism is a national pastime. It’s our patriotic duty and it’s a hell of a lot more important than running around praising all the time.

If you want respect then do some research on what pisses you off, and submit detailed and viable plans to change what you want to change.

Again refer to above; your argument is fundamentally flawed. You don’t have to have solutions to bitch. In fact, how do you even know what to resolve until you know what to bitch about? Think about it.

Many people throughout history have spent their lives trying to develop viable plans for change. Many have succeeded in making things better. But no one has, nor probably ever will, come up with a “viable plan” that couldn’t be torn down and refuted b/c of the cons it creates. There is a balance in the world and for every action there is a reaction (cause and effect). Everything that has pro and cons. Nothing is exempt from that. Nothing is perfect.

No matter what I come back with you will be able to find a flaw in it. That’s a fact.

Yet I don’t understand why you have not even addressed what I said as actions that people should persue in order to get off the ground

1. Abandon the shallow 2 sided ideology of left and right

2. Stop the over abundant mind set of holding 2 convictions simultaneously even though they completely contradict each other. Its irrational ideology and must be addressed.

Hell, go to MoveOn.org and see if you think their plans are better than what we got and submit them. I doubt they would be to any clear thinking person, but who knows.

Again with the 2 dimensional world view. Just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean I’m a member of move on dot org or some other liberal target. Notice how the spectrum of the conversation is being limited by this approach. Yes it appears as if lively debate is taking place btwn these two views but in reality the conversation has become limited in scope and thus is doing nothing more but reinforcing the same tired old bullshit. This kind of debate is widely encouraged; this is why we have so many bullshit news shows that bring the right and the left together to duke it out. There is no real debate actually taking place by this method. We are just grinding in the same system over and over again with the appearance of choice. It’s the same devil with two heads, so to speak. Power loves this, b/c all it does is reinforce itself as the only viable option while giving the illusion of freedom. Its bunk. Democrates, Independents, Repulicans….they are all cut from the same cloth. Your perspective should be wider.

[Sammie]

Our founding fathers and our greatest leaders had great fear for our republic/freedom b/c of the inherent corruption in the developing economic system that was arising from the centralized banking system and the creation of the modern corporation


I laughingly doubt that the founding fathers were even alive to see the creation of the centralized banking system.............unless they lived to about 180. All they knew was that the tax systems of the old country were corrupt and the system they laid out in this country were not to follow the ways of Europe.

Ok I love the fact that you followed this up after telling me I needed to do my homework and site my references. I found it amusing.

One because you are so off in left field here its not even funny. Of course our founding fathers knew about centralized banking. Centralized banking grew out of Europe. Its roots begin long before this country was even founded. Our founding father knew all too well how this system operated and the threat that it posed. Our country has a long battle with the government fighting off a centralized banking system. The national bank was charted and shut down 2 times in US history before it became what you know it as today, the federal reserve (established in 1913…and no its not federal and they don’t have reserves……)

The Federal Reserve, as all centralized banking, has a monopoly on currency. Anytime there is a monopoly on currency there is corruption. Centralized banking was never part of the government. It was corporate. The first two centralized banks in the US were privately owned. Like any other company they had to apply for charters periodically in order to remain in business. Twice in US history the charters were denied and they were shut down for years b/c of the dangers our government saw this system as a threat to democracy itself. A threat to everything this country was founded on such as the basic rights set out in the declaration of independence. Madison, Jefferson, Jackson, Van Buren and Lincoln were the main out spoken opponents of the banking system. Jefferson even went as far as to pay off the national debt and issue actual government notes that were not credit based. The money belonged to the people of the United States and not the all mighty money changers who Jefferson and others recognized as enslaving the government via the debt it owed to the bank.


That system held up well until the great depression when the US gov. deemed it necessary to implement an income tax. (which at the time was acceptabley (sp.?) tiny) Since that time our government has gone off of the deep end with tax and spend and now we are faced with the same situation that we faced in the times of the Boston tea party. We are being taxed to point of civil unrest. I believe we will change this without violence, but with threats of loss of power.


Ok here I think we are really in agreement. I also think the taxation of this country is out of control but it’s not b/c of the welfare state. It’s because of the economic system we have in place….its called fractional banking.


Definition: In economics, particularly in financial economics, fractional-reserve banking is the near-universal practice of banks of retaining only a fraction of their deposits to satisfy demands for withdrawals, lending the remainder at interest to obtain income that can be used to pay interest to depositors and provide profits for the banks' owners.


Fractional-reserve banking allows for the possibility of a bank run in which the depositors collectively attempt to withdraw more money than is in the possession of the bank, leading to bankruptcy. It also increases the money supply through a mechanism called the deposit creation multiplier, explained below, which can lead to inflation if reserves are too low. Most governments impose strictly-enforced reserve requirements on banks, with the exact fraction of deposits that must be kept in reserve generally set by a central bank.



This is the true reason for the depression. People came for their money and it wasn’t there. Businesses faltered, people lost their homes. The banks simple didn’t have their money.



Further, we all know you have to have collateral to get a loan from a bank. The government borrows money from the reserve. They have to; the reserve prints the only accepted currency. Thus they owe a lot of money to the reserve. What do you think their collateral is? It’s you and me and the over all taxing power of the government. When you buy municipal bonds for instance, it’s considered a safe investment, an investment that that would most likely not go into default b/c the municipality has total control over the taxation of its populous.

The same hold true for our government. It can borrow an endless supply of money from the reserve b/c it has the endless ability to tax the people.

If you want to know why you’re paying too much in taxes then look at the fat cat government…. Not just a two sided narrow view of the dem’s spending all your money on welfare programs. The republicans are spending it on corporate welfare and the average American is thus supporting the poor and the rich at the same time.



With the cental banking system in place you are ALWAYS going to pay taxes and more and more taxes b/c of the compounding interest in the debt that we already owe. All your tax dollars are hardly putting a dent in the interest let alone the principal.

[Sammie]

Basically what I'm saying is that I acknowledge that we have major financial problems, but that doesn't change my image of my country, I still love the US, and wouldn't change for anything in the world.


No one ever said not to love your country. What I am saying is what is it that you love about your country? Is it the flag, some symbol, the ideal?

In my belief if you really love your country your should be mad as hell that it’s being held hostage by greed and power……….created by men but not controlled by men. The establishment of corporations and the rights and welfare they receive are eroding the basic tenants this country was founded on. By law they are considered individuals and that inanimate being is not only given the same rights as you, they are placed above you and are the root cause of the violations of your rights.

I don’t hate my country. I hate what we are allowing to be done to it b/c it is enslaved into a system that necessitates the use its people as cattle.


Never forget that history is written by the victor and what is the prevailing ideology at any one given time does not make it the truth, in many cases it just serves to keep power in the hands of the victor. Always question the questions, LaRoacha.


He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. –Thomas Jefferson

"The mischief springs from the power which the monied interest derives from a paper currency which they are able to control, from the multitude of corporations with exclusive privileges which they have succeeded in obtaining...and unless you become more watchful in your states and check this spirit of monopoly and thirst for exclusive privileges you will in the end find that the most important powers of government have been given or bartered away….
- Andrew Jackson, Farewell Address, 1837"

"The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted."
James Madison

[JimbobSS]

"Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups."
Unknown

[McTucket]

"my balls are tasty. wanna lick?''
Chubbs

[Sammie]

chrsit i stayed up til 4 am posting that crap ( i didnt get out of GW until almost 3) and you have not even responded?


kiss my bootie laroacha :p

[McTucket]

lol ahahaha ahahah hah

[RustyBrownSheriffsBadge]

I thinks he is still reading it all.

[Sammie]

lol


:p

[Laroacha]

Sorry Sammie, I was outta town for work for a few day's in Laredo and I get back today and a thunderstorm fried my motherboards nic. I'm on a friends comp right now, give me till tom. and I'll read and respond to that "huge" post. I'm gonna pick up a nic monday and then I'll be normal.

[Sammie]

Hee

well you called for a manifesto. that could have been 500 pages. I rejected the request for such a task and limited myself to a page 5 response.

lol

sorry to hear about your mb's nic :(

[Laroacha]

Well, here it is Thursday and I've still not picked up a nic. I'm at a friends again and I've taken the time to read your entire post.
I must admit that I can't intelligently refute most parts of your post, mostly concerning the banking system in this country. It was painful to get through your definition of political philosophy,,,,,,why would "anyone" have an interest in specializing in the study of that?????

As far as "Centralized Banking" is concerned, if it was such a f'ed up system in Europe, then why would the founders not set up a system that was guaranteed not to follow that tact in the new world? My instincts tell me that the reason would be that banking is a business and as every business, it requires profits to stay solvent. How do you suggest banks lend money and not require interest and still stay profitable? As for fractional banking, I agree and disagree with you. I agree that the regulations are too lax on it and allow unstable banks to play fast and loose with depositors money and their credit, but I think it's a necessary evil, if used correctly.

If we didn't have a removed from the gov. "National Reserve" then we would have a system like China which could set the value of the dollar based on politics, which do you prefer? Your summery of the great depression was right on, but your blaming the banking system for it is slightly misguided. The banking system was the last nail in the coffin, but by no means was the cause of it.

Ok, my shallow 2 sided political approach. Feel free to have any opinion you want, but in this country you can take one of two sides and have any effect. Rep, Dem,,,,, any other amounts to a waste of a vote. I was once young myself and thought that major changes could be made, but over the years I've realized that you're just fooling yourself. The course of this country has been decided long before you or me were born. You pick a side and go with it. I've got some liberal leanings, but I see that the leadership of the Dem. party are fucktards with Kennedy as a leader, so I wouldn't touch em with your clit. I go with the Rep.s because they seem to fit more inline with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laroacha
I said, I "choose" to concentrate on the positive and if I have an answer to a problem I see, then I'm more than quick to propose that solution.


And I said that I disagree with your approach. I think it is more beneficial to society/mankind to concentrate your efforts on improving the social structure. Also I already asked you not to use the “if you don’t have an answer to the problem then you have no right to bitch. It’s a fallacious argument…….it holds no water…i.e. it’s an unsound debate.

This is the main reason for divorce in America. Women think they don't need justification for their insane arguments, they just think that feelings and insane thoughts justify their arguments, but most men will tell you that "NO" they do not.

Anyway, I'm trying to answer your post on someone else's computer with a time-limit, so I couldn't hit every point like I wanted, but hey, I tried.

[McTucket]

dont anyone get me started on kennedy.....

[THE_PACIFIST]

yeah laroacha that was a long post I read the first sentence and got bored...Chubbs what do you think about Kennedy? I'll get you started...plus why does this thread seem to remind me of High school debate class?

[McTucket]

i seriously think im regaining my lost knowledge listening to these two..... dont get me fuckin started man, im warning you

[RustyBrownSheriffsBadge]

Start!

[Sammie]

In general this post has been about the trust we have with people of power.

Below is a link of a frontline investigation on Wall Street, via the corruption that took place in telecom.

This story hits close to home to me because I worked for Salomon Smith Barney while all this was going on. I've meet most of tthese people in person.
Sandy Weill was our CEO; he came from Traveler’s Insurance and struck a deal with Allen Greenspan to over turn legislation through Congress, allowing banks and brokerage firms to merge. Thus, the birth of Cititgroup (Citibank, Salomon Smith Barney and Trevloers to name a few.) It made it the largest financial institituion on the planet. The legislation had been in place to protect investors.Grubman was our celebrity analyst. He led our sales meeting when we were in NY. He was also on our sales call every morning touting his stocks.

Anyone who has any interest on how the NASDAQ bubble occurred this is a real eye opener. Anyone who invests in the market, even though their 401k's should check it out.

I left Smith Barney as Jack Grubman was being barred from the industry. The entire thing left a nasty taste in my mouth and I almost left the business all together for it.

The morale of the story is things are not always what they appear to be and big business and government are definitely in bed together and there are major conflicts of interest when it comes to corporate America.

I know this isn’t some liberal spin documentary because I worked for the company for nearly 3 years as all this took place. I came on right at the formation and left as it crumbled.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...allstreet/view/ (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/view/)

5 segments, about 1 hour total

[McTucket]

you're absolutely right sammie, and citigroup is the tits

[RustyBrownSheriffsBadge]

If everyone has such a problem with Banks? Then why not switch to a federal credit union. They are owned by the people who invest in it.

[Sammie]

that's called a mutual held/privately held company verses a publicly traded company.

that still doesnt solve the problem

besdies they are not member banks of the federal reserve so they are vunerable when it comes to playing ball with the big guys (wallstreet and the fed) and further our economic infrastructure is built on the corporate market both domestically and internationally. I dont think you mean to label yourself an anti-capitalist. An economic reformist? A COMMIE!!! :shock: :p

Did you watch the vid. The "legal" process let the majority of these guys go. Grubman can no longer work for the industry but he left with a 30 million dollar package and his fine was only 15 million. He stated he made on average about 80-100 million doing what he did for 4 years.
Sandy Weill left Citigroup with 18 million in stock options plus the millions he had made breaking the law

And we're so worried about how some poor person is screwing us out of 200 bucks a month in food stamps. The real criminals are accountable for nothing.
So I say if you're going to steal anything make sure its billions b/c not only will it take you 5 yrs to get a trial but then you'll be slapped on the hand (with a huge wad of cash) while someone who commits a petty theft gets thrown under the jail house in less than 24 hours



There is another interesting vid archive on Rumsfeld. It goes through his career with Powell, Rice, Cheny, Bush, Rubin (sec. of the treasury...also the guy who was the VP of Citigroup with Weill).
It uncovers some of the history of the struggle btwn the military and the civilan government.

With all you military guys you might find some of it interesting.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/pentagon/view/

btw: i never sold my clients Worldcom or AT&T and I was threatened for not towing the company line by insteadn placing trades in companies like Ebay