Motorcyclists Attack U.S. Ambassador's Car in Venezuela

[McTucket]

CARACAS, Venezuela (April 8) - Supporters of President Hugo Chavez threw eggs and tomatoes at the U.S. ambassador's car Friday and motorcyclists chased his convoy for miles, at times pounding on the vehicles. The U.S. State Department swiftly accused Caracas city officials of complicity.



Venezuelan Ambassador Bernardo Alvarez was summoned to the State Department in Washington and told that his country was in violation of an international convention that requires host countries to ensure the safety of foreign diplomats, department spokesman Sean McCormack said.

The diplomat was warned there would be "severe diplomatic consequences between our countries" if another such incident should occur, McCormack said.

Brian Penn, spokesman for the U.S. Embassy in Caracas, said Venezuelan police escorts did not intervene as a car carrying Ambassador William Brownfield was pounded, kicked and pelted. No one was hurt.

"We're being attacked by groups of motorcyclists while we're traveling in an embassy car," Penn told The Associated Press by cell phone shortly before the motorcycles stopped chasing the four-car convoy.

The Caracas mayor's office denied any involvement. "No official authorized by the mayor's office participated," said Luis Martinez, a spokesman for Mayor Juan Barreto.

Brownfield has faced several protests at recent appearances. Chavez has repeatedly accused Washington of conspiring to overthrow him, an accusation U.S. officials have denied. The U.S. Embassy has asked the Venezuelan government to improve security for the ambassador, saying it's legally bound to do so.

Penn said the protest began when Brownfield visited a baseball stadium in a poor neighborhood of Caracas to hand out bats and other donated equipment to a youth league.



During the event, a Chavez supporter who described himself as an official of the pro-Chavez mayor's office walked up and said the people in the area wanted Brownfield to leave, Penn said. The man appeared to be leading the protest, Penn said.

Brownfield stayed and finished the event, by which time a protest by a few dozen people had formed outside, chanting "Go home! Go home!"

Penn said the barrage of tomatoes, eggs and other items began when the convoy pulled out and drove through an adjacent market. He said National Guard troops were on hand and pushed the crowd back as the cars passed through.

"Our car is stained all over," Penn said. "They were pounding on the cars, including pounding on the ambassador's car while they were driving. There was no one stopping them."

He said some 12 motorcyclists chased the convoy for three or four miles.

"The motorcyclists were throwing things at us for at least 10 minutes, and the police did nothing," Penn said. "It was serious."

The U.S. Embassy released a video of the motorcyclists taken from inside a convoy car, its windows splattered with broken eggs. Several motorcyclists were shown racing up to the vehicle and then dropping back as an occupant spoke excitedly on a cell phone.

McCormack, the State Department spokesman, said the incident "clearly was condoned by the local government." He said local government officials were handing out snacks to the perpetrators as Brownfield was at the stadium.

He said it was the third time in three weeks and the fourth time in all that there was a government-sponsored attempt to intimidate U.S. diplomats in Venezuela.

"We will not be intimidated," said McCormack.

Brownfield talked to Venezuelan reporters on the baseball field while the protesters waited for him outside, saying he fully accepts the right of people to protest and speak their minds, but added "I don't accept the right to violence."

"I don't accept the right of one group to tell me who I can meet with and who I can't," he told the Venezuelan TV station Globovision.

[3043]

I wonder why people in the southern part of the Western hemisphere might not like US diplomats? Hmmmmm.


In fact, in every country I have visited I have seen evidence of protest against US foriegn policy. Maybe a closer look inward is in order.

[McTucket]

people are going to disagree with the worlds strongest force.

[Sammie]

people are going to disagree with the worlds strongest force.

people usually dont like being forced


imagine that?

[3043]

people are going to disagree with the worlds strongest force.


It's a bit more complicated than that. The history of the western hemisphere is rife with...

[McTucket]

not everyone can love chubbs, the alpha male...

same with us.

[Hae-Yu]

Why does the UN GA vote for Cuba, China, Sudan and Zimbabwe on the Human Rights Commission?

Why is it that most of the world is against Israel? Palestine and every other neighbor attacked them and for most of its history worked for the annihilation of the state of Israel. Israel has never tried to exterminate Palestine nor has that been its policy. The people of Palestine have repeately avowed the destruction of Israel. Even now it elects Hamas. And yet Palestine gets all the sympathy.

The rest of the world isn't the best at making decisions, whether for their own good or the good of all.

[3043]

Why does the UN GA vote for Cuba, China, Sudan and Zimbabwe on the Human Rights Commission?

Why is it that most of the world is against Israel? Palestine and every other neighbor attacked them and for most of its history worked for the annihilation of the state of Israel. Israel has never tried to exterminate Palestine nor has that been its policy. The people of Palestine have repeately avowed the destruction of Israel. Even now it elects Hamas. And yet Palestine gets all the sympathy.

The rest of the world isn't the best at making decisions, whether for their own good or the good of all.

Ever wonder why people have attacked Israel or hated it since it's inception - including many jews?

Israel is fervidly trying to exterminate Palestine as a seperate nation and has been for years. How could you read history any other way? Why do you think Palestine hates Israel? For no reason? Because they are jewish? Hardly. You may want to look into the matter a bit more deeply.

Did you know that the Israeli army murdered a young american college girl in cold blood a few years ago for protesting the treatment of Palestinians by Israelis? It was in the news. The reprocussions for such actions? Nothing. The Palestinians were severely short changed and back stabbed by the creation of Israel after WWII. The behavoir of Israel's government since it's inception has been reprehensible. They even spy on us and sell our secrets to our competitors. Why the hell are they are allies? They have never done anything for my country.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/27/eveningnews/main639143.shtml

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0316-11.htm

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WPrachel.html

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1212-06.htm

[McTucket]

fuck all that bullshit. its more simple than that.

after ww2, the allies created an isreal state by taking land away from the palestinians... and just plainly giving it to israel.

wouldnt that piss you off?

[Hae-Yu]

In both our eyes, the Palestinians haven't got what they deserve by a long shot. But our opinions on what they should have coming are worlds apart.

I've studied this conflict from beginning to end. I started with no judgment to either side, but came away with an extremely negative impression of the Palestinians. They disgust me as much Nazis and Stalinists.

Initially, Jews and Palestinians lived under Turkish rule. The Brits promised each homelands in return for assistance against the Turks. They didn’t say each would get ALL of it. The Brits got the Mandate in '22 and part of that that mandate from the League of Nations was to restore a Jewish homeland in Israel. The Palestinian Arabs got their "homeland" - it's called Jordan.

WW2 had almost nothing to do with it, aside from escalating the Jewish flight from Europe. It wasn't because of a guilty conscience - it had been promised them >26 years prior.

The Brits gave control of the process to the UN who drew up the most idiotic plan ever conceived. For all intents & purposes they took a blue paint brush and a red brush and splattered them on a map of the region. Yes, there was a real plan, but the same result - no contiguous areas and therefore no security or real "nationhood" for either side. It was a recipe for war.

Palestine hates Israel because it wanted ALL of the territory and were humiliated when they were defeated - time and time again. They cannot form a stable modern government or economy despite the fact that many live with the greatest natural resource. Arabs gloried in a 1200 year old reputation, despite the fact they haven't done anything to earn it in... 1200 years. Just like France resenting US hegemony, Arabs resent the fact that they are has-beens. Nothing points that out like Israel's existence.

On the day of independence, Israel did not attack the Palestinians. Your statement that they are trying to destroy Palestine is an outright fabrication. On the contrary, the Palestinians attacked Israel - along with 5 Arab states. They were beaten by an improvised militia. The stated goal of the attackers was the "annihilation of the State of Israel."

Israel could have driven the Palestinians off ALL the land and kept it with Justice on their side too. If you attack me with intent to kill and I kill you in the process, that's Justice. Israel didn't. They only took enough territory for security. During this whole time they have been under constant siege but they’ve held back. Israel does play hardball, but with a Western conscience. It doesn't target school buses and dance clubs and while it has military dominance and a STRONG JUSTIFICATION for doing so, it has never tried to exterminate the Palestinian people. The Palestinians do not share Western sensibilities.

The Palestinians have spent 60+ years attempting to destroy Israel instead of forming a government, industry, or improving their lot. They live as victims and play the blame game, too dumb and ignorant to form their own society. More worldwide aid goes to Palestine than Israel and they still can't do anything with it except stuff their leaders’ pockets. You can watch propaganda films showing refugee camp children playing with turds for toys all day. Their parents made choices and everyone is simply too stupid to realize "hmm these choices aren't working out for us. Maybe we should try something else."

After ‘48, many Palestinians stayed on the land and became Israeli citizens. In Israel, you have only 1 recorded instance of an Arab Israeli committing a terrorist act. Why? Because it isn't apartheid. They are citizens in the wealthiest, most successful democratic state in the Mid-East.

Comfortable, Western bourgeois "Jews" denounce Israel for the same reason lefty bourgeois everywhere hate the dominant society they are affiliated with. They lack proper judgment because they have no defined sense of right or wrong or justice. Everything is relative and because action is based on perception rather than a defined, systematic belief structure the person can choose whatever viewpoint they wish and so are easily swayed by trends and ephemeral conditions.

I love it, that Western Lefties prove themselves every day by their opinions on the Arab-Israeli conflict.

On the one hand you have a functioning, parliamentary democracy with a heavily socialist economy and strong social services, populated by a universally persecuted minority which is vastly outmanned by hostile neighbors seeking its destruction. Despite having the least amount of mineral resources in the region, it has the wealthiest economy. In the face of constant attack, it has allowed the ethnic enemy to maintain jobs, and in the case of Arab-Israelis, to be full-fledged citizens.

Palestinians constantly choose despotic leaders, and now fundamentalist Islamists who will strip any rights women may have to nothing. There is no freedom of religion in the Palestinian territories. They are ruled by corrupt officials and thugs. They would (and do) kill any Jew who would venture into their territory.

Which side do the Lefties support? The wrong side, of course.

[McTucket]

i call bullshit. no matter my religions opinions, its bullshit to just "hand over" land to israelis just cuz they're jewish. let alone take it from people and force those people to move. they lost that fuckin land a long time ago, and if they want that shit back legitimately... they better band together and fuckin storm the banks... they did nothing to earn it... and just because they were the main victims during the hollocaust is no reason.

that aside, i believe it is our country's duty to protect them... stand up for them. whats done is done... and every country needs to fuckin deal with eachother... in a friendly way...

what the fuck is so wrong with no more fighting?

[JimbobSS]

Aww man, don't you remember back in high school tucket? how all the idiots used to get in fights all the time? I remember seeing at least 3 or 4 in the time I was actually awake at school (not very often). Funny thing I remember about those fights is that the kids that were fighting, were in my opinion, idiots, that would most likely end up working the rest of their lives in the Fast Food business. Did you ever see a fight between some "A" Students? So you see, when the rest of the world can stop being a Giant fucking Moron Fest, then and only then will their be world peace. HAH fat chance of that ever fucking happening when the "Greatest country in the world" has a moron running it.

[McTucket]

pretty good, except for the end... lol every president is different.... not everyone can be like reagan..

[Hae-Yu]

its bullshit to just "hand over" land to israelis just cuz they're jewish. let alone take it from people and force those people to move.

That's the lie the Arabs have been spreading from day 1. Don't buy it.

In the 40's, the population mix was about 66% Palestinian and 33% Israeli. The UN plan of '47 gave the areas that were majority Jewish to the Jews and the areas majority Arab to the Palestinians. In the mix, some Jews would have belonged to the Palestinian state, some Arabs to the Jewish state. But overall, neither ethnic group would have been forced to relocate. Roughly 45% of the land would have been Palestinian, 55% Israeli.

Why the slant? Because Palestinians clustered in cities and Jews were spread all over the countryside in kibbutzim. The '48 agreement did not give them land they didn't already own. The Jews agreed to the plan despite its inherently insecure nature. The Arabs said "no, we want ALL of it." On independence day in '48, the Palestinians attacked them to annihilate them and size all of the land. That isn't using strong language for effect - it's their language and their state goal. It's a goal they've never renounced.

While it may sound like I'm slanting the story, that is nothing but a dry statement of the facts.

It's like saying "this man raped, killed and mutilated this 2 year old girl and the defense saying "you're prejudicing the jury" by describing the incident that way. That's why I'm so pro-Israel, or more accurately anti-Palestinian.

Finally everyone points out the Jewish emigration from Europe, however Arab immigration to the area prior to independence was high as well. European Jews were investing heavily in the region and this was where the jobs were.


they better band together and fuckin storm the banks... they did nothing to earn it
In '48 they did. After the Palestinians attacked, they took a chunk of land to make a contiguous territory. They earned that. The same with the Golan, West Bank, and Gaza. They beat the Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese and Egyptians for that land AFTER they were attacked. They had the Suez Canal at one point too. We never sent troops to help them and neither did anyone else. They paid in their own blood.

What I don't get is why the West pressured them to give it all back. They were attacked and beat the snot out of their attackers. End of story.

[McTucket]

good lession in history, though a bit one-sided... i agree with most of it.

the thing i wanted to point out is the egyptian-israeli war...if you even want to call it a war...the jews creamed them.... enough said.

[Sammie]

why did this topic go from latin america to the middle east?

and the history in that territory did not magically start when israel was established as a state. The history has to be taken as a whole, not just bits and pieces.

I think the topic of latin america is more compelling b/c it doesnt get near the attention that the middle east does...for obvious reasons.

But they are completely different topics and I'm a little curious why the middle east was brought into a discussion about south america

[McTucket]

ok. i dont want to take the 3 seconds to go figure that out either. lets continue.

[Hae-Yu]

It was brought up in response to this:
I wonder why people in the southern part of the Western hemisphere might not like US diplomats? Hmmmmm.

In fact, in every country I have visited I have seen evidence of protest against US foriegn policy. Maybe a closer look inward is in order.
A lot of the world is against Israel as well. Just because the rest of the world has a differing opinion doesn't make it right and I pointed out 2 clear examples where "the rest of the world" clearly has some issues in the decision making dept.

As far as Chavez, he's another 2 bit crook like Castro. He's a demogogue and the people suck it up. Venezuelans never had any bad past that involved the US. So that whole "look at America's imperialist history in Latin America" line is BS. It doesn't apply here and it's a mis-characterization at best.

He tried to overthrow the previous president by coup. Was jailed got out, went legit and got elected. Since he's been elected, he has destroyed Latin America's longest running, most stable democracy and turned it into another crooked, nepotist state like Cuba. When he won power he vowed to rewrite the Constitution and he did so. He eliminated the bicameral legislature, he removed legislative oversight of the military, restructured elections so the presidential incumbent is almost a shoe-in, siezed control over labor unions, passed enabling laws to rule by decree, suppressed opposition parties, and in general is another typical despot.

Right now Venezuela's riding a wave of inflated oil prices and he is high up. When the price crumbles like it always does, he'll go down in the polls like the last pres (who was also very popular at one time).

For the Venezuelan people to elect him shows a distinct lack of wisdom. That's why they throw rocks at the US Ambassador's car.

[McTucket]

very good.

[JimbobSS]

ahhh the simple uneducated neighbors to the south lol. The women in brazil are hot and the cost of living (while taking exchange rates of the US dollar into account) is cheap. btw I don't know if anyone had opinions on this and I hope it doesn't hijack the thread but..... I know why the mexicans have been protesting! because they know that in less than 2 years Bush is gonna be out of office and the next president is gonna boot all those freeloading riffraff out of the country! Now I don't hate mexicans at all, I would much rather have them cutting the grass then myself, but if they can't get into the country legally then why are they here to begin with?

[3043]

very good.


Doesn't sound very good to me. And all of it circumvents my question of why the southern part of the western hemisphere might have a reason to be upset with US policy.

"As far as Chavez, he's another 2 bit crook like Castro. He's a demogogue and the people suck it up. Venezuelans never had any bad past that involved the US. So that whole "look at America's imperialist history in Latin America" line is BS. It doesn't apply here and it's a mis-characterization at best."

I don't know what history books you are reading but even american historians agree over the US's imperialist history in Latin America. How's that Kool Aid taste?

Seriously though, I would like to be more charitable towards Hae-yu's position if there was anything other than right wing extremism to it. It is perfectly in line with a right wing view of things. As if that is the only way to look at any matter? Since it lacks objectivity and factualness I can only go after it in a hardline manner.

Hae-yu your view of things is as troubling as FOX news being fair and balanced. You present your view as if it were both factual and objective when in reality it is right wing to the extreme. It's like FOX news in that they claim to be objective but have never, (to my knowledge), criticized Bush in any meaningful way for anything in six years. Is it possible he hasn't done a thing wrong since inauguration? Of course not but they present stuff in the right wing extreme point of view at any cost and call it objective

I guess I'll leave hae-yu's "mischaracterization" of the Israeli situation alone for now and save it for a different debate. I'll try to answer my own question in my next post since no one is looking into it with any seriousness.

[3043]

Reason one why Latin America might be a bit pissed at the US:

Since 1952 there have been no less than 17 US gov't sponsored coups in Latin America, most succesful. In most of them innocent people were killed. And why did our gov't kill innocent people to install different rulers of foriegn countries? Because, in almost every situation, the new rulers (sometimes duly elected) were against US business interest.

How mad would that make you?

In fact a policy of unabated domination, conquest and interference continued in the open until the late '60s. Since the implementation of the OAS has tried to soothe relations but the memories of the people are long.

[3043]

First let start off by telling Hae-yu thank you for telling me how I think and that it is wrong.
"...lefty bourgeois everywhere hate the dominant society they are affiliated with."
"Which side do the Lefties support? The wrong side, of course."

"Everything is relative and because action is based on perception rather than a defined, systematic belief structure the person can choose whatever viewpoint they wish and so are easily swayed by trends and ephemeral conditions."

That is some patently offensive bullshit. How dare you claim that "lefties" believe everything is relative? Or that we have no systemic belief structure? Or that we easily swayed by trends or the ephemeral? Who the fuck are you to suggest such things about a GNG member? Ann Coulter incognito?

This is a fucked up insult dressed up in nice langauge.

Demonizing your opponents is a method used by people whos arguments are weak. You seem an intelligent and eloquent writer who has put together several excellent points and I don't see that you need to use insults. It cheapens your points.


A "belief structure" is a large part of the core of a person's being. You have basically just reduced , ridiculed and marginalized anyone who is left leaning in their beliefs. Speaking of starting wars - I did not say anything about anyone's personal beliefs or values. And I certainly didn't insult them in any way. You have slung the first insult. I anticipate an apology.

I don't, as a leftie and as you suggest, hate the US at all, in fact, I love my country and want what is best for it's people. And I am decidely left leaning and middle class or bourgeios.

"Your statement that they are trying to destroy Palestine is an outright fabrication."

Really? That rebuttal by you is so outrageous I don't have the time or inclination to answer it. I suppose I could say that Israel has done nothing to earn 10+ UN resolutions condemning Israeli treatment of Palestinians? There are likely more than 10 but I stopped counting. Maybe I have it backwards and Israel is just neutral or actually trying to help and foment a positive, stable Palestine. Or I could say that three times as many palestinians have died than have Israelis since the first infitada. LMAO

"They cannot form a stable modern government or economy despite the fact that many live with the greatest natural resource."

What resource do they live "with"? And I wonder why they might have unstable governments and economies, hmm, hmmm?

"Palestine hates Israel because..." you sure are good at reading people's minds and intentions.

"Just like France resenting US hegemony, Arabs resent the fact that they are has-beens. Nothing points that out like Israel's existence."

Wow, just wow. Nice link between a country and a race. How very FOX news-ish of you. I wonder why he Arabs haven't recovered in a meaningful way since the crusades...hmmm, hmm?

Well here is SOME truth to your post...

"On the day of independence, Israel did not attack the Palestinians. . On the contrary, the Palestinians attacked Israel - along with 5 Arab states. They were beaten by an improvised militia. The stated goal of the attackers was the 'annihilation of the State of Israel.' "

But still not truthful. Seven nations attacked Israel on that day - Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen.

An improvised militia? That is laughable. I guess it was surprise that all those Arab nations were going at attack? Just snuck up on everyone, eh? And Israel just "threw toghether some doods with guns" and fought them off. That's probably how it happened. :rolleyes:

Did the arab people of an Arab Region make a huge mistake in 1948? Yes. Did they use the Palestinians as fodder for political ends? Yes. Did they lose big time? Yes. Have the Palestinians been made to suffer for it from both Jewish and Arab forces? Yes.

"It doesn't target school buses and dance clubs and while it has military dominance and a STRONG JUSTIFICATION for doing so, it has never tried to exterminate the Palestinian people."

Now that is just an outright fabrication. I couldn't even begin to list the atrocities commited by the vastly superior (in every way) Israeli Military has attacked innocents. There literally are too many examples to choose from.

"If you attack me with intent to kill and I kill you in the process, that's Justice."

Actually that is the definition of self defense.

jus·tice n. The principle of moral rightness; fairness.

Is it morally right to kill someone trying to kill you? Depends on your moral system. Some turn the other cheek, some practice acceptance, some go for an eye for an eye, some believe in forgiveness...


"They only took enough territory for security."

Ha, ha, ha. They took up to 80% of the land after Israeli victories. Now who is mischaractizing stuff? Only enough my ass.

"Israel does play hardball, but with a Western conscience."

Like when they ran over that US protestor with a bulldozer? That's hardball alright. Or like when they kill innocent Palestinians in retaliation to terrorist attacks against Israli's? That's a "western conscience." ? Where do you get this stuff?

"The Palestinians have spent 60+ years attempting to destroy Israel instead of forming a government, industry, or improving their lot."

This statement is intellectually dishonest. It makes no sense whatsoever. Neither does this next bit of garbage:

"They live as victims and play the blame game, too dumb and ignorant to form their own society. More worldwide aid goes to Palestine than Israel and they still can't do anything with it except stuff their leaders’ pockets."

So three generations have been dominated by dumb and ignorant people and hey have no society? Actually, Palestine does have a vibrant and lively society and culture. Maybe you should go there some time.

"Their parents made choices and everyone is simply too stupid to realize 'hmm these choices aren't working out for us. Maybe we should try something else.'"

You can't really believe it is that simple? Do you really think people live that way?

"You can watch propaganda films showing refugee camp children playing with turds for toys all day."

What on earth are you talking about here? I have seen no movies starring a turd and some children playing with it since South Park.

"I love it, that Western Lefties prove themselves every day by their opinions on the Arab-Israeli conflict."

This sentence makes no sense. Only Western Right-wingers can possible know what is going on in the Arab-Israeli conflict?


"Despite having the least amount of mineral resources in the region, it has the wealthiest economy."

Maybe because their oldest and closests allies were the two most powerful and richest nations in the world at the time of Israel's inception?

I don't want to discredit the generations of people who, through hard work and obvious sacrifice have turned Israel into a modern nation, either. There are many, many good people Arab and Jewish, in Israel.

"Initially, Jews and Palestinians lived under Turkish rule. The Brits promised each homelands in return for assistance against the Turks. They didn’t say each would get ALL of it. The Brits got the Mandate in '22 and part of that that mandate from the League of Nations was to restore a Jewish homeland in Israel. The Palestinian Arabs got their "homeland" - it's called Jordan."

By initially you mean in modern times. And I guess they were just supposed to up an move to "Jordan"? Imagine if someone pulled this bullshit here:

Let's use the US as an example. It's 1948 and the UN has passed a mandate stating the 50% of the continental US shall be given over the Jewish people as theirs. A line is drawn following the eastern borders of Montana, Wyoming, Colorado and Texas. Everything west of this is to be called Israel and is now no longer under US control. Most American citizens living in western states are moved east. Those that remain must move to another country altogether or stay and accept Israeli rule. Over the following years countries such as say Britain and Japan bank-roll the new Israeli state to the tune of billions of pounds and yen. Not only that but they ship vast amounts of armaments too. Subsequently after a few skirmishes along the border, Israel uses these monies and armaments to invade eastwards and annexes a further 30% of what was originally the USA. US territory now consists only of the north-eastern corner; or everything north of Tennessee and North Carolina and east of Wisconsin and Illinois. Many Americans left behind in the western and southern states now live suppressed under the rule of a foreign power. The rest are crammed into the remaining 20% of their former homeland. How long would it take you to become a "terrorist" under such circumstances?

That's not a perfect example but it does lay out the geography a bit.

I don't care to go on bc I don't believe anyone is reading this post at this point but I guess I will sum up with the feelings derived from my [I]easily influenced and obviously faulty belief system: The Palestinians have been screwed over mercilessly. It's not the Jews who screwed them the most, however, it was the leaders of the various Arab nations. But countless innocents have suffered because of the choices of their parents and Israel's merciless "hardball" approach. Worse, after losing in war against Israel Arab nations have used the people of Palestine to fight Isareal through them (the Palestinians). But at the end of the day it occurs to me that the people who benefit the most from "ignorant", "dumb", and hopeless Palestinians are BOTH arabs and jews. And that little tidbit basically sums it up; Palestine is kept a perpetual mess bc in its messy state both Arab nations and Israel benefit from it immensely. BTW some of this was cribbed from earlier posts by me to other sites and other posters to those same sites.

[McTucket]

dont attack him, attack his facts...

[3043]

dont attack him, attack his facts...


AAAAAAAAA! Now you are being more sensible than me!!!! I AM TOTALLY FREAKED OUT!!

I did attack him, after a bit, because I realized he attacked me first albeit indirectly. My natural instinct, (one sadly lacking from democrats in general and liberals in specific), is to attack back hard. I tried to restrain myself but I guess I failed. Sorry, Hae-yu.

The problem with attacking his facts is that the matter is very complicated and his oversimplifications are much too difficult to pick apart - each one needs to be met with a lengthy rebuttal. It becomes ridiculous and tedious. It's like being a guest on Bill O'reilly's show...

[McTucket]

you'd get torn apart going head to head with billy and you know it...

[Sammie]

you'd get torn apart going head to head with billy and you know it...

the only way old bill can win a debate is by screaming at his opponent and then saying they are out of time

I have never seen him actually win a debate.

He just tucks his tail and runs and then pats himself on the back as if he is the victor

[McTucket]

he wins alot... BUT

hes stuck up and he buts in so his guests cant say anything. i hate that.

[Sammie]

honestly i have not watched him that much

I just cant stomach him

Normally I enjoy listening to idiots like him and Rush. They make me feel as if I'm not crazy. They reaffirm my belief that these guys are ignorant ego maniac freaks.

But lately I just cant seem to listen to them anymore. I've heard it all. Its the same old rhetoric over and over again. I'm not really getting anything from it all and besides, I don't want to encourage them by helping their ratings.

[McTucket]

hehe it goes both ways.../

[Sammie]

hehe it goes both ways.../

both ways?

are we talking in two dimensions again?

I surrender.

[Hae-Yu]

As far as who I am to come in here and argue with a GNG, maybe you should reread the "about" section more. Maybe look at the name on a lot of the articles (UltraV, UltraVires, Artful Dodger, Hae-Yu are all me). Sorry for the strong wording since you don't know me. I retired from gaming a while ago, but I sensed fresh meat in the "politically passionate" arena. I've held off arguing politics for over a year and I'm ready to burst:)

Fox News - Fox, CNN and MSNBC are Commentary channels, not news channels. I can make up my own mind. If it's on someone's TV I won't bitch, but it's not where I stop the channel.

Right Wing - actually I'm libertarian, but pro-Israel and pro-American. I have plenty of problems with Bush. I agree 100% with Sammie’s characterization of O’Reilly and talk-show hosts in general.
I don't know what history books you are reading but even American historians agree over the US's imperialist history in Latin America. How's that Kool Aid taste?
I was speaking of Venezuela specifically. Our only involvement is when we drove off Anglo-German gunboats who were collecting on V’s debt in 1902. No Soviet revolutions to put down, a stable economy based on oil; Venezuela has done pretty good. What reason do Venezuelans have to hate us other than Chavez’s 6 hr Sunday talks?
Really? That rebuttal by you is so outrageous I don't have the time or inclination to answer it. I suppose I could say that Israel has done nothing to earn 10+ UN resolutions condemning Israeli treatment of Palestinians? There are likely more than 10 but I stopped counting. Maybe I have it backwards and Israel is just neutral or actually trying to help and foment a positive, stable Palestine. Or I could say that three times as many palestinians have died than have Israelis since the first infitada. LMAO
They have >45 against Israel. Over 10 alone for responding against PLO attacks in Lebanon. >10 Resolutions against deporting Palestinians (terrorists). Resolutions ordering them to give back Golan, Gaza, Jordanian territories, Lebanese territories - all of which were used as bases to attack them. Resolutions against assassinating Hamas leaders. UN resolutions are as worthless as the paper they are written on.

How many resolutions against the Palestinians for targeting school buses or launching mortar attacks against civilian areas? Zero. Demonstrates how f'd up the UN is.

Israel is defending itself against incessant attack. What FACTUAL instances show they want to annihilate Palestine? What PROOF is there?
None. The simple facts are:
1) Palestinians tried to destroy Israel and failed repeatedly.
2) Israel has the power to exterminate every last living Palestinian, but hasn't. The Palestinians have shown no similar restraint.

Here's the same pattern we have seen for 60 years:
1. Israel is attacked.
2. Israel defends itself.
3. The UN or other international group steps in to end the violence, calling for both sides to take certain actions to resolve the situation.
4. Israel attempts to comply but the intransigence and non-compliance of Israel's enemies delays implementation.
5. Israel is blamed for failing to comply while the failures of Israel's enemies are ignored.
By initially you mean in modern times.
By initially, I mean the last 604 years. From 1402 when the Ottomans swept the Mid-East, until 1922 when the Brits gained control. Until now. The Brits promised both sides their own country there in exchange for assistance in overthrowing the Ottomans. From the late 1800s- 1940, the region had Jewish AND Arab immigration.

So now we have a 1922. How do you divide the land? You have Jews in Palestine and Palestinians in Israel no matter how you work it. Saying people are supposed to "just pick up and move" is a given considering 2 sides want the same land. If there isn't a compromise there will be problems. The Jews did compromise and accepted the shitty UN plan. The Palestinians didn't and still haven't. Noone had to move wholesale. Arabs are not an oppressed minority in Israel. Israeli Arabs fight in the armed services, vote and are in general muh more propserous than any other set of Arabs in the world. But there are no Jews in Palestinian lands...
I couldn't even begin to list the atrocities committed by the vastly superior (in every way) Israeli Military has attacked innocents.
If civilians get killed in its operations, I don't think they feel too bad, but they aren't directly targeting them.
"The Palestinians have spent 60+ years attempting to destroy Israel instead of forming a government, industry, or improving their lot."

This statement is intellectually dishonest. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Yes it does
1) Leadership the Palestinians have chosen - PLO/ Arafat, Hamas, Fatah
It demonstrates the clear intent of the Palestinian people. They have no aim other than destroying Israel.
2) Economy - The Palestinians have not invested the vast amounts of foreign aid in infrastructure, services or their economy. Palestine receives more aid and accomplishes less. Both lack substantial mineral resources. Israel's economy is based on intellectual instead - aircraft, optics, software, etc. Palestinians are a welfare state in the broadest sense of the word. Israel built its economy with the aid, not so with the Palestinians.
Ha, ha, ha. They took up to 80% of the land after Israeli victories. Now who is mischaractizing stuff? Only enough my ass.
That was over time. After '48, Israel took over an additional 20%+from what was initially assigned them and Jordan took another 20%+. They COULD have taken all of it. After further wars, yes they have most of the land. I don't fault them that at all.
It's not the Jews who screwed them the most, however, it was the leaders of the various Arab nations.... Worse, after losing in war against Israel Arab nations have used the people of Palestine to fight Isareal through them (the Palestinians).
With this I agree.

[3043]

you'd get torn apart going head to head with billy and you know it...


Actually, I don't think I would. I think I would end up in jail that night after being on his show. He is so anti-american that I believe the moment he disrespected me on his show it would be my patriotic perogative to kick his ass so thoroughly enough that I would need a lawyer AND a bondsman. Rarely has anyone I have never personally met inspired such emotion in me but after watching him on TV lie, be an overt hypocrite, bash family survivors of 9/11 and so on I feel compelled to put Mr. Tough guy to the test and see just where I could get my size 11's before security beat the shit out of me.

[McTucket]

it sounds to me like you hate him so much because you know, deep down inside, hes telling the truth... or at least he started out telling the truth years ago, until fame made his head bigger than my cock...

i just dont like how he treats people...

sean hannity is my man. rush is ok..

[3043]

it sounds to me like you hate him so much because you know, deep down inside, hes telling the truth... or at least he started out telling the truth years ago, until fame made his head bigger than my cock...

i just dont like how he treats people...

sean hannity is my man. rush is ok..


Now you are getting all freudian on me? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, my friend.

Size 11 coming for O'reilly, one way or another.

He's gonna pay what he owes.