I have too----sorry

[HHBizzle]

Recently as some of you may know they tried to pass that thing to make a constitutional ammendment to ban the idea of gay marriage. I know some of you are for it, against it and dont give a shit. Obviously you know how I feel. but I read this article by the parent of Matthew Sheppad. If you remember him, which I doubt most of you do, he was killed in an anti-gay hate crime in Wyoming (tortured and left to die on a fence on some farm by two homophobes) in 1998. Matthew’s death touched the hearts and souls of millions across this country and ignited a media focus on the issue of hate in our society.


Anyways, he died, the town went nuts..yata yata yata blah blah blah.

His parent made the folllowing statement in regards to the attempt at the ammendment and there are some nice points i wanted to point out.


Statement by Judy & Dennis Shepard Opposing the Federal Marriage Amendment

“Anyone that believes that the hatred behind this amendment is any different than the hatred that was the cause of our son’s murder is fooling themselves and doesn’t understand what is happening every day in our society.”

After viewing the President’s press conference on Monday and the Senate debate the past two (2) days regarding the so-called “Marriage Protection Amendment”, we feel compelled to respond to those who would write discrimination into the Constitution.

It was hatred directed towards the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) community that personally harmed our family and took away our son, Matthew, not the love and commitment expressed each and every day between same-sex couples. Love is the foundation for marriage, not a threat to it. That love should be celebrated by society, not diminished. The love and strength of the GLBT community and their allies that helped us significantly during the difficult times of the past seven (7) years now sustains us and encourages us to continue the fight for GLBT rights. As a society, we should encourage and support our fellow man as the GLBT community has done for our family.

It saddens us that the President and Senate Majority Leadership, in the guise of protecting the institution of marriage, are using the lives and jeopardizing the futures of GLBT individuals and their families for political gain leading up to the 2006 mid-term elections. In their opinion, marriage between a man and a woman needs to be protected or the world as they know it will collapse along with modern society. It ain’t so. During the course of our 33-year marriage, the only time our family has needed protection is when hatred and discrimination took the life of our son Matthew.

This is the same type of regressive thinking that led to prohibition (which failed and the Constitutional amendment was repealed) and racial discrimination and segregation (which also failed). Will modern civilization disappear if same sex marriages are recognized as having the same equal rights as those of opposite sex marriages? Only in the closed minds of those currently in political power, especially the older generation, who think it is their duty and God-given right to tell the younger generation what is right and what is wrong; only in the closed minds of those in political power who are worried about the fact that the ‘younger generation’ is more open-minded and accepting of diversity of all kinds, including same-sex marriage; only in the closed minds of those in political power who are worried about losing an election over other domestic and international policy failures; and only in the closed minds of those fundamentalist church groups who are attempting to purchase a Constitutional amendment through political votes and donations to justify their existence. As far as the President and Senate Majority Leadership are concerned, it’s okay to take away the rights of a significant portion of taxpaying, law abiding, God-fearing Americans, as long as it isn’t them losing those rights, privileges, and, possibly, families.

Since when is it wrong for a gay American to want to fight for, and protect, the country of birth by serving in the military? Where is the threat to our family and the families of other Americans? Our biggest threats come from an ineffective President and Senate Majority Leadership that can’t conclude a war, can’t improve the current state of the educational system, can’t provide decent health care for every American, can’t reform the Social Security and Medicare system to prevent them from going broke, can’t protect our borders, can’t reduce the debt, and can’t bring back the world-wide goodwill, integrity, and reputation that America held before the second Gulf War.

Everything is a ‘can’t’ so the obvious solution to these problems is to focus on an issue that half the country believes is a non-issue.- gay marriage. Why? It turns attention away from the real problems and keeps the religious right happy that something is going to be done. It’s so obvious that an Amendment will not pass. But it allows the President and Senate Majority Leadership a so-called ‘photo-op’ – an opportunity to put on a public display of good intentions, letting them pretend to do what is good for America in order to reach for those all important votes and donations,Anyone who believes the hatred behind this amendment is any different than the hatred that led to our son’s murder is fooling themselves and doesn’t understand what is happening every day in our society. Instead of trying to enshrine discrimination into the U.S. Constitution for a threat that does not exist, let’s spend the time more wisely by building and supporting rights for all citizens to work, play, marry, raise families and live in a country that was founded on the proposition that all citizens are accorded equal rights.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Animal]

I still don't understand why people need to have an opinion on this issue. Even if you don't think it's right, why impose your beliefs on others?

This is one of those issues where allowing gays to marry or whatever they want to do doesn't really effect the people that are against it. People always want to throw their 2 fucking cents in and complicate shit when there is no need.

Gay marriage doesn't hurt the people that are against it and it only benefits those gays that want to get married. It's a win/win situation to allow gay marriages. Not only that, but like Bizzles post outlined, there are more important issues.

Blacks eventually got to eat at diners and sit on the bus with white people so I am confident that gay marriages will be commonplace at some point. I just can't grasp why there needs to be this big issue about it.

If there is someone here who is opposed to gay marriages, maybe you can explain why you or other people might feel the need to actively stop gays from marrying. How do gay marriages effect your daily lives or the lives of others?

[Smashley]

Well I listen to Bill Oreiley some times (keep your friends close and enemies closer) cuz I like to hear what the other side is up to. Most of the conservatives, that call his show, are just anti-gay everything. They feel gay marriage will be a blow to morality and the institute of marriage and a lose for conservatism in general. Now, understand that these people feel that homosexuality is a sin, and to allow it legally in our society would be a blemish on society.


I do not agree with this. I feel one should be allowed the same rights no matter race, creed, or sexual preference. Not allowing gay marriage is bigotry.

[Hae-Yu]

Comparing gays to blacks is wrong. Blacks suffered grave social injustice which gays largely don't. They were enslaved and denied voting rights and citizenship!! How is that the same??!! Activist gays have been trying to draw this comparison for years and it disgusts me that people buy into it.

It does affect those who are against it.

For those who don't believe in gay marriage, we would have to honor their "marriage." Making it legal, gives it a legal, recognized status. It isn't an empty symbolic gesture.

Employers would have to honor partners as spouses and provide benefits that real marriages receive. That's big. If I'm an employer, I'd rationally employ those who are best capable of performing the job regardless of personal differences. However, that does not mean I should be forced to accept those differences as "legitimate" lifestyle choices.

You can say it doesn't affect those who don't believe in it, but it is ramming a belief system down our throats which we can't support. I don't believe the state of being a practicing gay should be illegal, but requiring me to accept it and support it is entirely out of the question.

Additionally, many state services support spouses - military widows get bennies, military spouses get preferred hiring on base, they receive additional job placement services, etc. Socially they receive other benefits from the tax dole. None of which I want my tax dollars supporting. On the other hand, if people would vote for my libertarian platform, I'd eliminate all those perks anyone receives.

The possibilities of discrimination that could be precluded by marriage such as a relative denying a partner's will should the other be incapacitated in the hospital, can be overcome with a health care proxy or power of attorney.

Why isn't it a "real" marriage? Because it doesn't provide the same benefits of marriage. When real couples get married, it creates kinship between families. Children create bloodties between families. It is used to rear children and share in responsibilities and resources toward that purpose. There are all kinds of societal implications a real marriage has that a gay marriage is not. If it was just about 2 people fucking one another exclusively, the state wouldn't need to be involved. If it was a sacrament, the state still wouldn't need to be involved.

Additionally, marriage isn't a legal fiction but an independent institution that predates any government and organized church sharing most attributes across most societies and time periods. Only Holland of any society I know of throughout history has recognized gay marriage. That doesn't make them progressive, it just makes them stupid.

It's like the "Life of Brian." "I want to have babies." "But you're a man." "Nevertheless I demand the right to have babies." What's the point?

Being gay is either a) a perversion if it's a choice, or b) a birth defect that will eventually be fixed if genetic. It's the same as pedophilia, beastiliality, necrophilia, or any other perversion. The only difference is that it's between consenting adults and therefore I (and most others) don't see a need to send the man down on them. I don't hate gays anymore than I hate people who post pictures of girls eating turds on this forum. But I don't have to agree with it and I won't be forced to either.

However, I agree with the letter that this move by Bush is a shallow gambit to bring back conservatives alienated by his stance on immigration.

[HHBizzle]

Being gay is either a) a perversion if it's a choice, or b) a birth defect that will eventually be fixed if genetic. It's the same as pedophilia, beastiliality, necrophilia, or any other perversion. The only difference is that it's between consenting adults and therefore I (and most others) don't see a need to send the man down on them. I don't hate gays anymore than I hate people who post pictures of girls eating turds on this forum. But I don't have to agree with it and I won't be forced to either.

However, I agree with the letter that this move by Bush is a shallow gambit to bring back conservatives alienated by his stance on immigration.


Where is option (C) its not a choice?

I say this because I certainly didnt wake up with i was seven and say, today world, i am choosing to be gay.

Its interesting that you only lend homosexuality to either a perversion or a birth defect. There is not much to say to make you believe differently, nor would I try. However, if you knew me, and if you knew other gays on a more personal level you would probably think differently.


When it comes to the comparison of the hardships blacks faced, that is souly for the fact to make people realize that WE once treated blacks/women in ways that today we find mind boggling to believe. That's the point we are trying to make; that look how the world once treated these people, and look how the world realized this was not a proper way to treat a human being. Which is the final result, white, black, yellow, catholic, muslim, hindu...they are still just humans, capable of love and anger and all that stuff. So why cant all humans be seen as equals?

[Animal]

I am not trying to denounce any of the things blacks had to go through. I also can't pass judgement on who had/has it worse since I belong to neither camp. You cannot deny the parallels between the issues though.

I still don't understand why gay couples should not be given the same legal status as straight couples. I don't give two shits about religious standpoints (seperation of church and state anyone?) and I certainly don't give a crap about what you want your tax dollars to go toward. I think that a lot of state sponsored benefits need to be abolished but that has nothing to do at all with gay marriages.

Why isn't it a "real" marriage? Because it doesn't provide the same benefits of marriage. When real couples get married, it creates kinship between families. Children create bloodties between families. It is used to rear children and share in responsibilities and resources toward that purpose. There are all kinds of societal implications a real marriage has that a gay marriage is not. If it was just about 2 people fucking one another exclusively, the state wouldn't need to be involved. If it was a sacrament, the state still wouldn't need to be involved.
Who, exactly, are you to say what is and is not a real marriage? Your stance on marriage is just an opinion. If 2 queers want to get married so they can enjoy some of the legal perks of the marriage, what difference does it make? If 2 queers claim to love each other so much and want to enjoy the rest of their lives together, why shouldn't they be allowed to? Are they going to stop being gay if we don't let them wed? No, they will still be gay and the impact on society won't be any different.


Being gay is either a) a perversion if it's a choice, or b) a birth defect that will eventually be fixed if genetic. It's the same as pedophilia, beastiliality, necrophilia, or any other perversion. The only difference is that it's between consenting adults and therefore I (and most others) don't see a need to send the man down on them. I don't hate gays anymore than I hate people who post pictures of girls eating turds on this forum. But I don't have to agree with it and I won't be forced to either.
Again, who are you to say what "being gay" is or is not? No one is asking you to agree with anything or force you into anything. It seems you are the one trying to force your opinions of marriage and being gay on people.

It's easy. Just because I don't like you doesn't mean I am going to deny you certain rights. Same thing with gays. Married couples are able to share benefits at work, among other things. Just because you don't like gays they should be denied this benefit? That's bullshit.

And yes, back to blacks... They were treated differently just because they were black. You are treating gays differently just because they are gay. That's the most retarded thing ever, especially if, as you claim, "being gay" is genetic. In that case, gays can't help being gay anymore than blacks can help being black.

[Thunder]

I still don't understand why gay couples should not be given the same legal status as straight couples. I don't give two shits about religious standpoints (seperation of church and state anyone?) and I certainly don't give a crap about what you want your tax dollars to go toward. I think that a lot of state sponsored benefits need to be abolished but that has nothing to do at all with gay marriages.

Don't call it marriage then. Call it a legal union of two adults. The fact of the matter for me is that I'm being forced to recognize something I do not believe in.

I don't think there is a difference between forcing people to recognize something they don't believe in and not allowing two people in love get married. Both violate belief systems.

Most of you know my stance so I won't go over it in detail. I just can't believe that God would allow someone to be born a homosexual since that would automatically make them a sinner and therefore going to hell. I'm out.

[Candii.blisS]

Comparing gays to blacks is wrong. Blacks suffered grave social injustice which gays largely don't. They were enslaved and denied voting rights and citizenship!! How is that the same??!! Activist gays have been trying to draw this comparison for years and it disgusts me that people buy into it.

It does affect those who are against it.
.


A guy got tortured to death and was left to die. i think thats social injustice. what else would you call it?

and due to the 13, 14, and 15th amendment, nowadays EVERYONE can vote... so just because gays arent denied that right doesnt mean they ARENT facing social injustice. just because the connection is not perfectly parallel, no need to say that its disgusting.


how does it AFFECT those who are against it. why, just because you dont like homosexual marriages, must you ban it? if you dont like it, then dont be gay.

[Animal]

Fine, don't call it marriage. If two people (straight, man and woman) got married who you didn't think should be married, what then? Should that not be considered a marriage since you "don't believe in it"?

[HHBizzle]

I just can't believe that God would allow someone to be born a homosexual since that would automatically make them a sinner and therefore going to hell. I'm out.


I remember once asking why god made me this way.

Im still waiting for a answer.

What should I be doing in the meantime?
Ten-thousand hail marrys?
Ignore my human feelings?
Suicide?
Get married to a girl and then live my life as a lie and never really love her, but do it for the sake of what society and religion has deemed morally and religiously correct?
Kill others who are gay out of spite?
Or live life, fall in love, buy flowers and cards, love letters, and the like?

[Candii.blisS]

its irritating to see people with such intolerance. what the fuck do you expect them to do?

seriously, i think that calling it a perversion or a birth defect is just plain wrong. but even if it WAS , it happened didnt it? so what the fuk do you want to do about it, BAN the marriages? oh wow, big bad way to save the world.

yeah i know of a guy who was forced into marriage just because the cheating slut wife got pregnant, possibly not even with him. hey, im fucking against it, but that doesnt mean i have the right to not call it a marriage, or even say that their marriages affects ME. its THEIR marriage.

whats even more ridiculous is just because someone doesnt like it, that he or she'd go and try to "ban it." thats none of my god damned business. neither should it be for a straight person to be against gay marriages.

[rogless]

Why are you trying to undermine the family? Do you hate America? (j/k) :wink: .

I don't think it's the government's job to determine who is married to whom. I don't think the state at any level should even recognize marriage. I'm for gay marriage because the more marriage combinations we allow, the blurrier the definition will become until it's no longer easily defined.

Once the GLBT (could you POSSIBLY add any more groups to this alphabet soup of sexual identities? :lol: ) get their right to marry, the polygamist, polyamorist, bigamist, swinger, wife-swapper, anything-goes (PPBGSWSAG) :wink: folks are up next. Just let the government try to define THOSE relationships. Imagine the tax implications alone!

The bottom line for me is that it's everyone's right to enter into partnerships with whomever he wants. The government should, and hopefully soon will, get it's big nose out of it.

[Sammie]

Why isn't it a "real" marriage? Because it doesn't provide the same benefits of marriage. When real couples get married, it creates kinship between families. Children create bloodties between families. It is used to rear children and share in responsibilities and resources toward that purpose. There are all kinds of societal implications a real marriage has that a gay marriage is not. If it was just about 2 people fucking one another exclusively, the state wouldn't need to be involved. If it was a sacrament, the state still wouldn't need to be involved.
.

I have heard this argument used over and over again and I call bullshit.
If the only real marriage is one that rears children then even hetro marriages, that have no intention or desire to bare children, are equally illegitimate. Thus, Mark and I would have "right" to be married, because we are not a "real" marriage. Perhaps he shouldnt be entitled to my company benefit plan either?

I agree with you on the economic impact. However, I think this just proves that there are more levels to this argument than morality alone. Peel back the layers on this issue and you will uncover everything that has been mentioned above, from corporate profits to plain old bigotry.

I fully support gay marriage.

[Hae-Yu]

"intolerance" means not recognizing their right to be gay. Anyone can be gay all day for all I care. I'm saying I don't want my tax dollars supporting a lifestyle choice I disagree with.

What you are saying is that I HAVE to recognize that homosexuality is a legitimate lifestyle choice. You are saying there is no room for beliefs other than yours. That's intolerance.

A guy got tortured to death and was left to die. i think thats social injustice. what else would you call it?
I would call that social injustice. What does that have to do with either a) gay marriage or b) being gay for that matter?

Is it a greater social injustice that a gay man is killed than a straight man? Or a black man over a white man? Isn't murder always a hate crime? It's always a social injustice when anybody is tortured and killed like that. So me as a straight, white man or you as a straight, assuming white girl are less important.

Where is option (C) its not a choice?

I say this because I certainly didnt wake up with i was seven and say, today world, i am choosing to be gay.
Are you saying it's not a choice, but not a defective genetic condition? How can that be?

Actually, I have known quite a few gays and quite a few were my friends. I grew up in the 80's punk scene. Some people "turn gay" after being abused or having been abused early in life. The vast majority of gay people I knew (well over 20 or 20) were abused when they were younger. Similar to females who were raped when they were younger becoming sexually promiscuous and having overall lower self-esteem, I think abuse is a strong indicator.

Others were, for lack of a better word, losers, with low self-esteem and found acceptance with gays and were confused for a while. Later 2 found gals and married them. Some stayed in the scene as far as I know.

Only a few were always just fem.

I haven't thrown religion into it at all, AR. I'm just using reason. It isn't opinion either. Think.

Marriage as recognized by the state has nothing to do with religion or love. Think about WHY the state recognizes the institution of marriage. Think about why it always has. What is the reason for the legal status of married couples? Why is it that marriage has always been between man-woman? Not man-man. Every society, not just Christian or even Judaism-derived. Read Confucious. It isn't to recognize that 2 people are committed to one another. Throughout most of history, they never even got to choose. Relatives and roommates can be equally committed to one another but don't require a legal status. Why is it that states recognize marriage? You aren't thinking.

It all centers around procreation. That's something man-man/ woman-woman unions are incapable of performing. There is no purpose in the state recognizing gay marriages. Other legal tools provide virtually all of the benefits, except Social Security survivor benefits and a few others. However, if it's a 2-earner couple (which most gay couples are) you don't get SSsb's. The reason why you have SSsb's is to encourage stay-at-home moms to care for children or to recognize them for doing so in the past (elderly couples where one never worked).

I certainly don't give a crap about what you want your tax dollars to go toward.
Why not? Tax dollars aren't some limitless pool like everyone seems to believe. Just throw "a few dollars" to their pet causes here and there. Hell, we even have Republicans behaving like rabid Democrats now with the way they throw around money. No one's minding the store. In any case, I have every right to complain and demand that my tax dollars don't support causes I don't believe in. You too.

whats even more ridiculous is just because someone doesnt like it, that he or she'd go and try to "ban it."
We don't like pedophiles so we "ban" them.
We don't like bestiality so we "ban" them.
We don't like streakers so we "ban" them.
There is all kinds of precedent for banning deviant behaviors.
no need to say that its disgusting.
Yes it is. Blacks ancestors were enslaved, brought to a foreign land, worked to death, raped, and treated as 3/4 human. Then they were persecuted and beat down, denied the right to vote and provided substandard facilities for their tax dollars. In every case, the law treated them differently.

Gays aren't being treated as not human. A gay can marry a person of the opposite gender all they want. However, a straight person cannot marry a person of the same gender. The law applies equally to all.

Maybe me and a roommate wanted to share my health plan and I can make some money off them. Gays have married straights honestly or deceptively for all kinds of ends. However, because the law recognizes marriage based on procreation, not ANY other reason, same-gender marriages will not be recognized.

You're tilting at windmills. There's no point in it.

[HHBizzle]

Are you saying it's not a choice, but not a defective genetic condition? How can that be?

Actually, I have known quite a few gays and quite a few were my friends. I grew up in the 80's punk scene. Some people "turn gay" after being abused or having been abused early in life. The vast majority of gay people I knew (well over 20 or 20) were abused when they were younger. Similar to females who were raped when they were younger becoming sexually promiscuous and having overall lower self-esteem, I think abuse is a strong indicator.

Others were, for lack of a better word, losers, with low self-esteem and found acceptance with gays and were confused for a while. Later 2 found gals and married them. Some stayed in the scene as far as I know.

Only a few were always just fem.


I find it absurd you would rely on a genetic condition to delegate one's sexual preference, we still have not even begun to understand genetics enough to make such a judgement.

You must not have known enough gays.
Me and my sister are gay
from a wonderful family
you need to wipe ur mind's views on the choice/genetic issue man.
You are not gay so I dont think you can understand what it is like to be "different," "devient," or an "abomination."

its too complex to understand
therefore you fear what you dont understand

if you understood me, then you wouldnt have anything to "fear"

[Hae-Yu]

BTW, except for maybe Bizzle and anyone not obviously gay, I've probably had more gay friends and even roommates than anyone else here. Just because I disagree with the choice doesn't mean I'm gonna beat people down and piss on their corpses.

The difference between me and others is that I'm honestly voicing a nuanced view, not just spouting crap I heard someone else say or crap that I think's a neat idea. I call it as a I see it.

My view would be closest to rogless in that it isn't the state's business. You sign a contract defining the terms, file it with the county clerk and move on. If that contract is defined by the GLTA or the Lutheran Church in an appropriate ceremony then so be it.

Stop using the "homophobe" fear crap line. No one's afraid of gays and that only works on soundbyte media. Young guys may occasionally be confused about their identity, but just because you look at a guy's package doiesn't mean every guy thinks like that.

BTW, I always believe it's a choice. Gays were the first to start saying "I was born that way" and started citing poor research. Blame your brothers.

[Sammie]

Ultra I think you are dead wrong on this argument. I've never disagreed with you more about something.

No one gets a true say in how their tax dollars are spent. I'm certainly not being asked and I know the majority of my tax dollars are going towards agendas that I do not support in any way shape or fashion.

The of idea a true marriage being about procreation is down right retarded. That would mean that infertile couples would have to adopt to have a "legal" marriage? What about those who can't and those who dont even want to consider raising children. Should we ban those marriages too?
Should someone have to fill out a questionare on what their marital intentions are and have it rubber stamped as a legitmate contract?
The idea is absurd.

Marriage is a right that everyone is entitled to except homosexuals. The reason they want it is the same reason Mark and I decided to get married. I never needed a piece of paper from the state to prove my love to mark. The reason we decided to get married was two fold: it was a symbol to both of us on our level of commitment and it was a financial benefit. Other than that I didnt give two shits about "marriage".

You speak of two options....choice or genetic defect. Your choice of words display your bigotry like a badge of honor. Why is homosexuality a defect? It seems rather widespread and normal to me.
I dont see a defect at all.
Is the defect that they can't bare children such as one would refer to a infertile person having a birth defect?
Again it goes back to "real" relationships requiring procreation. So those who either can not or choose not to breed would fall into the same category. Perhaps my desire to not have children is a defect. Or perhaps its based on a world full of bigotry harted and greed that prevents me from wanting to bring another human being into it.

I'm truly shocked at your comments. I find your position disturbing and disheartening.
I'm sure there are others out there who feel the same way as you do, perhaps for different reasons. Its your justifications, not your position per say, that I find so deplorable.

[Candii.blisS]

I would call that social injustice. What does that have to do with either a) gay marriage or b) being gay for that matter?

if you read what bizzle wrote about to begin with, it was about a gay man that was killed like that by a group of anti-gays. doesnt that kind of remind you of what those racists did back then? THAT was my point. thats clearly why it has to do with being gay for that matter.

i have not said anything to say that you shouldn't be against gay marriages or a gay person, by the way. i was acutally voicing MY opinion against those who denounce the gay issue.

and by the way, your "tax" dollars isnt going straight to the gay marriage fund. even if gay marriages were to be banned, its not like you'd pay any less of a tax. and i'm sure it wouldnt go anywhere beneficial otherwise. it prolly will even go to something like 'feeding the convicts' or other crap that a bunch of other people hate where their "tax" goes to.

[Sammie]

BTW, except for maybe Bizzle and anyone not obviously gay, I've probably had more gay friends and even roommates than anyone else here. Just because I disagree with the choice doesn't mean I'm gonna beat people down and piss on their corpses.

The difference between me and others is that I'm honestly voicing a nuanced view, not just spouting crap I heard someone else say or crap that I think's a neat idea. I call it as a I see it.

.

Bravo to you!!

:rolleyes:

Seriously Ultra I hate to bust your balls but your head is HUGE. No one gives two shits about how many gay friends you have. Its your justifications that are being called into question, not your rolodex.

There is no difference between you and anyone else here. Your thoughts are no more original than anyone else.

Everyone else is just repeating things they heard but your thoughts are your own. What the hell kind of self legitimizing bullshit is that?

Step down from the high horse and come back to planet earth.


No offense intended, "I just call it like I see it"

[HHBizzle]

BTW, I always believe it's a choice. Gays were the first to start saying "I was born that way" and started citing poor research. Blame your brothers.




Yes, born that way..as in not our choice born that way...as in we cant do anything about it cause we were born that way.

Ultimately I just get irritated by people who say they dont agree with the lifestyle, i get even more irritated when they say they dont agree because it is a sin.
Its like I want to hammer a nail through everypersons head that says that.

what exaclty is their to disagree with?
the fact that i can love another person? thats very sweet of you.

oh shit, i keep forgetting though, im not supposed to love someone of the same sex....fuck!

I guess I should hang up my certificate of asexual splendor, then i would ne neutral, and no one would care.


but as one of my professors said the first day of class..."im here, im queer and i have a PHD"

and no one should bring in the bible verses..thats the biggest load of crap this century next to the davinici code..read the bible in its original langauage and then translate those few evil lines that demonize my kind.

[Animal]

I'm saying I don't want my tax dollars supporting a lifestyle choice I disagree with.
I really don't understand what tax dollars has to do with gay marriages. I am not being sarcastic so could you please elaborate on this a bit? If there is some kind of plausible explanation, then it might very well be the most sane reason I have heard against gay marriages.

Are your taxes going to go up as a direct result of allowing gay marriages? I doubt it. So what difference does it make. My tax dollars go toward shit I don't agree with (welfare, anyone?) all the time. I am not going to bar anyway of Mexican decent just because I don't agree with the system.

I also wasn't talking to you directly about the "religious" thing. I just wanted to get it out of the way because religion doesn't/shouldn't play any role in state sponsored marriages and, thus, should be left out of this conversation. Of course, someone had to bring up God anyway.

If being gay is genetic, whats makes that bad? That would be your opinion. It may never be "fixed" because there isn't necessarily anything wrong with it.

What's with this procreation card? Is there something you can reference about this? Like Sammie said, what of couples that get married with no intention to procreate? Are they illegitimate marriages? WTF?

Why not? Tax dollars aren't some limitless pool like everyone seems to believe. Just throw "a few dollars" to their pet causes here and there. Hell, we even have Republicans behaving like rabid Democrats now with the way they throw around money. No one's minding the store. In any case, I have every right to complain and demand that my tax dollars don't support causes I don't believe in. You too.
Why not??? Because I don't believe gay marriages will have any bearing on my taxes. I pay what I pay and it is what it is. I would vote for gay marriages. I would not vote for a bill that allowed more funds for gay marriages. I do not comprehend how they go hand in hand.

Yes it is. Blacks ancestors were enslaved, brought to a foreign land, worked to death, raped, and treated as 3/4 human. Then they were persecuted and beat down, denied the right to vote and provided substandard facilities for their tax dollars. In every case, the law treated them differently.
One can argue that women were treated the same way for quite some time. At some point in history, whites were treated the same way. Every race, gender, religion or whatever the hell else you want to talk about has somehow been "wronged" in the past. Blacks went through a lot of shit that everyone has gone through, they are just the most recent example. Now, gays are the ones being treated unfairly.

[Candii.blisS]

No one gets a true say in how their tax dollars are spent. I'm certainly not being asked and I know the majority of my tax dollars are going towards agendas that I do not support in any way shape or fashion.

The of idea a true marriage being about procreation is down right retarded. That would mean that infertile couples would have to adopt to have a "legal" marriage? What about those who can't and those who dont even want to consider raising children. Should we ban those marriages too?
Should someone have to fill out a questionare on what their marital intentions are and have it rubber stamped as a legitmate contract?
The idea is absurd.

nicely put. i wouldnt have said it any better.

the only difference between a gay marriage and a child-less hetero marriage is the gender. theres nothing else to it. so.. theres not much else to say.

i am friends with many gay people as well, but its not like i count them and compare to others to defend my viewpoint ---- in which in THAT case seems quite contradictory and against the said "friends".

[JimbobSS]

If homosexuals want to get married ahhh fuck it just let em and lets get on with our lives. Tax dollars are being burned by the billions so that doesn't matter either. Personal opinions are over rated so theres another thing down the drain. Hell I don't plan to ever get married, if it happens then whatever. If I have kids it won't be an accident but I don't think I'm gonna go for the raising children thing either. The benefits that people get from the government because of marriage is a nice perk, but marriage isn't a sacred thing in this day and age. Hmmmm lets see, how many people do I know that have been married and then divorced withing ooohhh 2 - 5 years? More than a few. If marriage is so sacred that they need to have laws saying whats right and whats not then the people making these laws obviously live in their own little world and ignore the things happening today. I knew I should have been a divorce lawyer!! And with the gay folks going to be able to get married soon business there will be BOOMING!

[Hae-Yu]

No offense intended, "I just call it like I see it"
LOL, fine, I'll tone it down.

I haven't brought up the Bible once. My views were formed a long time ago.

#1 I hate fake people. I never liked queens because they live in a world of make-believe. They are the fakest people I've seen. The non-queen fems are almost as great a set of put-ons. They talk to their mom in a normal voice, but change to the exaggerated "fem accent" in the scene. Public voice, private voice. Fake. Fake. Fake.

I'm certainly not being asked and I know the majority of my tax dollars are going towards agendas that I do not support in any way shape or fashion
Yes, but you can speak out against them.

Procreation
I'm not saying that's the reason FOR marriage. I'm saying that's the reason for state recognition of marriage. Divorce, custody, inheritance, kinship, relations, all center around procreation and all have legal aspects. "Just screwing committedly" doesn't. The state doesn't consider asking them because the legal nature of marriage assumes children. People almost always had children before, that's the way the system worked, that's the way it's carried over despite changing social environments.

Taxes
Because "spouses" recieve various benefits in different circumstances, legally recognized spouses in gay unions would receive bennies. Therefore tax dollars go to them. Not a direct handout specifically to a "gay fund."

..."im here, im queer and i have a PHD"

It's a really pathetic person who defines themself by who fucks them. That's my #1 problem with gays in my book that separates them from other groups. They are defined by either a) who they fuck b) who fucks them. If you were to ask me to list 10 single words things to describe myself I don't think my sexuality would be in the top 7 or 8. If we waited 5 months for this convo to be forgotten and made a thread that asked that, almost every straight person would list other things - profession, religion, hobby, etc. Each choice in those aspects can define many broad strokes. "I'm gay" says, well, "I'm gay."

You get tired of "gayness" popping up every 20 minutes. Fuck. Play a game. Talk about a non-gay movie. A non-gay book. How's your car doing? Something. Candidates are defined based on pro-gay or anti-gay. There are non-gay news stories.

It's not that open sexuality is offensive, but by-and-large, gays are ONLY defined and ONLY define themself by their gayness. It's like one-track mind hell.

[HHBizzle]

LOL

It's not that open sexuality is offensive, but by-and-large, gays are ONLY defined and ONLY define themself by their gayness. It's like one-track mind hell.


explain the above quoted section, for I do not understand it. I do not define myself by my gayness. I define myself by my actions, beliefs, and morals.


and the PHD thing was a joke, it was a class about religion and sexuality.

[Sammie]

its a very convenient position to take b/c this issue in no way affects you.

your rights are not being infringed upon and no one is telling you that you cant marry the person you love.

you obviously have some issues about homosexuals. its very plain to see in your comments.

I dont know what to say about that. But your position against gay marriage is full of holes.

[Hae-Yu]

explain the above quoted section, for I do not understand it. I do not define myself by my gayness. I define myself by my actions, beliefs, and morals.

You really don't see it?

The original maudlin post is a perfect example.

Point 1: This "amendment" is going nowhere. It has NO chance of passing. It's an obvious play to the base. It will have no affect on anything or anyone, except maybe diverting attention from the immigration issue and rallying a few conservatives back. It has no affect on you.

Point 2: The Supreme Court just shot down your property rights. Cops don't have to knock & announce before they burst your front door open and shoot you and shove your partner's face into the floor. The Supreme Court undermined your ability to to defend your home. If you're anti-gun, it SEVERELY undermined your right to reasonable searches and siezures.

This came from the Right wing. A few months ago the Left wing screwed your property rights by saying govs can take your property for any reason they choose.

Which story do you decide is newsworthy?
The only news is gay news to gays.

Yes, Sammie, you're right. I am tired of an extraordinarily small, vocal, minority setting a very pointless agenda. There are many larger concerns in the world. This is like #3816464656 in importance. It's just like the dude/ ette in Life of Brian.

[HHBizzle]

They are both newsworthy.

And the only news to gays is not gay news.

[Sammie]

.

Yes, Sammie, you're right. I am tired of an extraordinarily small, vocal, minority setting a very pointless agenda. There are many larger concerns in the world. This is like #3816464656 in importance. It's just like the dude/ ette in Life of Brian.

I really dont think its as small of a number as most people would think.
I know a ton of gay people.
If gay people truly only make up 10% or less of the population then I must be living in the highest gay concentration in the states.

Regardless of this observation, I still have to ask: what makes it so "pointless"?
Because only the supposive 10% are being denied a basic right?
Is it merely the numbers?
So 1 or two, perhaps even 15 million (that's only 5% of the population), injustices are meaningless?
What arbitrary percentage, or size, does it require to be of importance?
20%, 50%??
I just dont follow you on this point.




Its not important to you. I get that. But that doesnt make it unimportant.

An injustice is an injustice regardless of its size or your opinion on what is of relevant significance.

It is an injustice. There is no reason two men or two women cant be married. Marriage is a symbol of one's love and a good way to get rights that are otherwise not afforded to you. You said you were leaving God out of it so leave him out. If this is just about a State license then there is no reason that the government should be able to enforce who is able to symbolize their feelings with a certificate nor should they be able to strip anyone group of people from having the same legal rights that married couples have.
Some people get married for practical purposes. Mark and I are a good example of that. If we were not married Mark would have no say in matters that pertained to my health or finances if I was not able to speak for myself. He also would have no access to my medical and insurance benefits at work. It was practical for us to get married. I really didnt care about the State recognition of my love but it was foolish for two 30 year old adults who love each other and have been living together for 10 years not to get married and take advantage of the rights that married people receive.

That is all the gay community wants. They want equality. They want the same rights and privledges that the hetro community is afforded. They are not birth defects, they are not a small minority and they are not less deserving than any other citizen.

End of story.

[thegreaterbad]

and no one should bring in the bible verses..thats the biggest load of crap this century next to the davinici code..read the bible in its original langauage and then translate those few evil lines that demonize my kind.


...No one brought up any verses or forced their view of religion onto you, telling you that you had better listen to my Bible or I hope God strikes you down cold...No one has said that, yet you fervently tell us your view on it nonetheless.
If you dont want anyone ripping apart your lifestyle, please dont rip apart what some of us choose to believe in. That is simple respect and we are all friends here, so there is no reason to attack like this.

[Animal]

I just can't believe that God would allow someone to be born a homosexual since that would automatically make them a sinner and therefore going to hell.

Someone already brought religion into this. Bizzle did not start it. And that sentence by Thunder is hilarious. Everytime I read it, I laugh my ass off!! It's great. That one sentence says so many things, I don't even know where to start.

The most obvious is... OF COURSE YOU CAN'T BELIEVE THAT GOD WOULD DO THAT!!!!! Hel-the-fuck-lo!!!! Wake up? The reason for this? Drrrrrummmm roooolllll......... /trumpets...ta da ta da ta da!!!! THERE IS NO GOD!! OMFG what a revelation!!!

I am SO SORRY! But you guys just make it so EASY!!

[thegreaterbad]

Well, I dont think that was the right phrase for him to add, but what he believes to write is purely up to him. I would not write that for the simple fact, it turns this thread into a Religion War, and that is 99% not what this post is about. Had someone gone into Bush's motive for this amendment, then yes, but Bush has embarrassed himself so much in the public's eye that standing up for something he believed, I would be asking for an ass-raping of rebuttles.
I must admit AR, those are some damn strong opinions and hopefully later in time, we can go over why you feel that way in a different thread. (Dont worry, I am not setting you up for a gospel ambush, I am just really curious about people's mindsets that are wholly different than mine.)

[Animal]

I must admit AR, those are some damn strong opinions and hopefully later in time, we can go over why you feel that way in a different thread. (Dont worry, I am not setting you up for a gospel ambush, I am just really curious about people's mindsets that are wholly different than mine.)

Wow, you shocked me. I was fully expecting some kind of really defensive comeback. I'm glad you realize that, while I don't agree with your philosophical views, I am just bustin your balls. No harm intended.

Likewise, I am interested and curious about peoples mindsets just like you are. Maybe start another thread?

[Hoplon]

Personally, i don't think it's healty to not believe in anything. It doesn't really matter what you believe as long as you have something to help you through hard times.

[thegreaterbad]

HAHA I am proof that young adults can mature, had this been 6 months ago, I wouldve tried to Bible Thump you. But as much as I hate to realize it, I have fallen by the way side on my beliefs and I am entertaining others to find clarity on what I believe.
But I must stop this, because this thread is about Homosexual Unions and why we chose to believe or disbelieve. I dont wish to enter this debate anymore because my ideals are soooo skewed on the matter.

All I can say is that I used to be Homophobic like hell, and now that I accept they are real people, I have to further my understanding on what makes them different than the standard of "normal" my Evil Private Christian School pounded into my head before I can pass judgement on what is truly right or wrong.
Whew....That used way tooooo many brain cells, time to hit the bar, I will come back and check this thread after some "Thinking Juice":badgrin:

[HHBizzle]

So to recap this threads dangerous quivers and follies!



This is the same type of regressive thinking that led to prohibition (which failed and the Constitutional amendment was repealed) and racial discrimination and segregation (which also failed). Will modern civilization disappear if same sex marriages are recognized as having the same equal rights as those of opposite sex marriages?



only in the closed minds of those in political power who are worried about losing an election over other domestic and international policy failures; and only in the closed minds of those fundamentalist church groups who are attempting to purchase a Constitutional amendment through political votes and donations to justify their existence.


my fav. point:

Everything is a ‘can’t’ so the obvious solution to these problems is to focus on an issue that half the country believes is a non-issue.- gay marriage. Why? It turns attention away from the real problems and keeps the religious right happy that something is going to be done.


Comparing gays to blacks is wrong. Blacks suffered grave social injustice which gays largely don't. They were enslaved and denied voting rights and citizenship!! How is that the same??!! Activist gays have been trying to draw this comparison for years and it disgusts me that people buy into it.



Additionally, marriage isn't a legal fiction but an independent institution that predates any government and organized church sharing most attributes across most societies and time periods. Only Holland of any society I know of throughout history has recognized gay marriage. That doesn't make them progressive, it just makes them stupid.



Being gay is either a) a perversion if it's a choice, or b) a birth defect that will eventually be fixed if genetic. It's the same as pedophilia, beastiliality, necrophilia, or any other perversion. The only difference is that it's between consenting adults and therefore I (and most others) don't see a need to send the man down on them. I don't hate gays anymore than I hate people who post pictures of girls eating turds on this forum. But I don't have to agree with it and I won't be forced to either.


yeah i know of a guy who was forced into marriage just because the cheating slut wife got pregnant, possibly not even with him. hey, im fucking against it, but that doesnt mean i have the right to not call it a marriage, or even say that their marriages affects ME. its THEIR marriage.


I don't think it's the government's job to determine who is married to whom. I don't think the state at any level should even recognize marriage. I'm for gay marriage because the more marriage combinations we allow, the blurrier the definition will become until it's no longer easily defined.


intolerance" means not recognizing their right to be gay. Anyone can be gay all day for all I care. I'm saying I don't want my tax dollars supporting a lifestyle choice I disagree with.

What you are saying is that I HAVE to recognize that homosexuality is a legitimate lifestyle choice. You are saying there is no room for beliefs other than yours. That's intolerance.

(shit im the one who has to tolerate playa)



I find it absurd you would rely on a genetic condition to delegate one's sexual preference, we still have not even begun to understand genetics enough to make such a judgement. http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/578.gif

[Hae-Yu]

Actually, Neb, I think I have said plenty of things that would offend gays on purpose. I'm not in a coddling mood, esp since most people here are letting feelings run their judgement and not common sense. I think the issue is so clear cut it doesn't need religion or anything other than common sense.

Oh let's ban landmines. Oh let's embargo Koreans because they eat dogs. Oh, let's stop horses from being eaten. It's another feel good waste of airtime and I get tired of hearing otherwise smart people espouse it like it's a real cause.

This is the same type of regressive thinking that led to prohibition (which failed and the Constitutional amendment was repealed) and racial discrimination and segregation (which also failed).

This is in no way related to those great struggles. To elevate this discussion to that level typifies the self-aggrandizing gay mindset.

"I'm here, I'm queer." "Pay attention to me!!" "I need attention!!"

Prohibition and racial equality were so more important to humanity than this.

It's the same as if they forbade tax dollars to be spent on transgender operations. What's the point of getting transgender operations? Because it's a right???!! Poor, hopeful, sick individuals who just want to live a life - as another gender. "It's our right!!" WTF?

Sometimes I use the girl's bathroom because the guy's has shit on the walls. Who am I hurting? But it isn't acceptable behavior.

So we'll just recognize every sub-group's right to do idiotic things regardless of the pointlessness of it. Not only will we permit the behavior but we will codify the lifestyle.

Gays want gay marriage recognized not because of rights and not because of bennies.

Gays
want
everyone
to
acknowledge
homosexuality
is
a
legitimate
lifestyle.

It isn't about loving someone. You are free to love whoever you want. It isn't about legal rights. Legal mechanisms are there to provide gay partners the same rights as spouses. It's not about marrying someone. You are free to do that. Plenty of other gays were married too. It's about forcing US to legitimize YOUR lifestyle.

Well I demand the right to stand on my head in public after eating prunes and let the poop run down my body and face. In front of a pre-school. But guess what. Not only do I want to do it. I want everyone to ackowledge that my behavior isn't deviant and that it is as valid a choice as theirs. Finally, I want it codified into law. Who am I hurting? No one. It still ain't gonna happen.

---------------
Of course it's going to be important to gays Sammie. Gay is the only thing on gay minds. Gay gay gay. It's so boring it goes full circle to fucking aggravating.

I'm gonna be gay and I'm gonna shove my gayness down your throat. And you better fucking like it too. If you don't, you're a hatemonger. You're a homophobe. You're intolerant.

The percentage is less than 2% Sammie. Gay websites say 4-5%.

thegreaterbad.
Get some gay friends. Think of the most intolerant friends in Christian school. They saw the world through a VERY narrow window. You know the type. At first the gay perspective will be refreshing. Then, you'll see that the vast majority of gays are essentially the same as your narrow-minded, 1 track, 1 sermon Christian friends. It's especially apparent in the older ones - 30's, 40's. The sweet, gay Robin Williams character - doesn't exist. Everything is meant to persecute them, everyone who doesn't agree is trying to make martyrs of them. Boring and annoying.

There are some good guys who happen to be gay. I never met a lesbian who didn't hate guys, but I'm sure they exist. If you find a good friend like that, cherish them. The rest will just get on your nerves.

[HHBizzle]

Gays
want
everyone
to
acknowledge
homosexuality
is
a
legitimate
lifestyle.


I'm gonna be gay and I'm gonna shove my gayness down your throat. And you better fucking like it too. If you don't, you're a hatemonger. You're a homophobe. You're intolerant.



That is where you are mis-interepreting everything.
Do you take my starting of this thread as trying to shove gayness down your throat? I seriously hope not beacuse that was not the case.

And of course we would like everyone to recognize it as a leg. lifestyle. If the roles were reversed and the heteros where the minority and we str8 bashed you for liking pussy, how would you take it? If we killed str8 men caught in the act of perverting a female body, how would you like that?

I suppose you feel that city's gay pride fesitvals are just a huge cock shoving gay party in your face.

How about county fairs in small towns? Lets shove country down your throat!

I dont feel like the christians are trying to shove thier shit down my throat when I turn on Pat Robertson and the 700 club; nor do I feel like a Shalaylee is being shoved up my ass on St. Pattys day when the irish come out of the woodworks; nor do I feel like all the blacks are crying murder during black history month....................

[HHBizzle]

.

[Thunder]

Someone already brought religion into this. Bizzle did not start it. And that sentence by Thunder is hilarious. Everytime I read it, I laugh my ass off!! It's great. That one sentence says so many things, I don't even know where to start.

The most obvious is... OF COURSE YOU CAN'T BELIEVE THAT GOD WOULD DO THAT!!!!! Hel-the-fuck-lo!!!! Wake up? The reason for this? Drrrrrummmm roooolllll......... /trumpets...ta da ta da ta da!!!! THERE IS NO GOD!! OMFG what a revelation!!!

I am SO SORRY! But you guys just make it so EASY!!

This is why I do not post my beliefs. I know AR is just busting on me but I could easily take this wrong way and get all bent out of shape. I wasn't trying to bring religion into it, I was just posting my belief on why I think that homosexuality is a choice. That is all. Nothing more.

I personally would vote for the gay marriage ban but it doesn't matter. Anyone with a lick a sense knows that this bill doesn't have a chance of passing.

[Sammie]

I really dont see anything practical about your opinion.
I also think drawing reference to absurd behaviors everytime you mention gays is ....well.....absurd.
They are not a small fringe group. They are not a freak of nature that needs to fixed by genetic tampering.
Yes I think you are a clearly homophobic.

http://www.northernsun.com/images/thumb/5389ImSoHomophobic.jpg :p

[HHBizzle]

This is why I do not post my beliefs. I know AR is just busting on me but I could easily take this wrong way and get all bent out of shape. I wasn't trying to bring religion into it, I was just posting my belief on why I think that homosexuality is a choice. That is all. Nothing more.

I personally would vote for the gay marriage ban but it doesn't matter. Anyone with a lick a sense knows that this bill doesn't have a chance of passing.


i know, i could easily take your opinion as some sort of persecution i guess for not allowing me equal rights, but i wont for now. :wink: Ill just go sit in the back of the bus, muuhuhahahhah!

[Thunder]

That's right! And make me a cheese sandwich!

[Sammie]

lol bizzle

:p


Get your ass to the back of the bus and dont open your mouth about gay issues. All of you gay people with your one tracked minds. Every thought you have is gay. You are incapable of rational thought. Why? Because youre gay. You are a terrible genetic defect that hopefully we will find a cure for someday. Until then, keep your trap shut. Dont ask. Dont tell.
You can screw whoever you want to but dont dare speak of it or ask for equal representation. Your desire for equlity is not justified because you belong to some small fringe group of society so you dont deserve the same rights as everyone else.
We would burn you at the stake but we are a more civilized nation now, so we will just stereotype you instead.

[Thunder]

We could burn them at the stake? Aw man... Toasted cheese sandwich is so good with that extra flavor of burndid peoples.

[thegreaterbad]

damn dude, i am getting hungry.......I would suck a dick for a cheese sandwich.....oh shit...JUST KIDDING HAE-YU DONT BASH ME....:wink: just playing man, lets all be friends:tongue:

[Smashley]

If you think being gay is a choice try choosing not to like chicks Thunder.

I know that being straight is not a choice for me. I have absolutley no control over liking chicks so much. Some times if Im watching TV and see some hot chick I get instantly aroused. It doesn't even have to be sexy. It could be a silly dawn commercial, but if the chick has a nice rack or ass; IM at the comp looking at porn rubbing on out. Its even harder to fight the feeling in real life... I could be at the store inline behind a chick and man... i just wanna bang her over the and drag her back to my cave so I can do durtay durtay things to her. Its primal and I can't help it at all... its just an impulse. Ass... titays... boner!

Im sure its the same for gays... I bet bizzles sees a nice package and is like ooooooooooooooooo.... I just wanna suck it!

Being gay is no more a defect than bad eyes sight. Its just the way they are... differnt than most... but not defective... car parts are defective... not people.

Come on... are we gonna say retarded people can't marry and have kids because it may be a finacial burden?

We don't call them defects.

[Hae-Yu]

'm not going to support laws to humor subgroups that "feel" they are being oppressed by the system. I refuse to support laws based on feeling or perception.

No, I do not see this thread as an attempt to push gayness. I do find the attempts to codify gay marriage as such. If it hadn't been for those efforts, I wouldn't be in the same camp as the conservatives. I supported the repeal of sodomy laws and other governmental busibodiness. I do not support being forced to recognize gay marriage.

Let's put it this way:
Prohibition morphed into the War on Drugs. We have the system killing tens, sometimes scores of people daily. A huge chunk of African American young males are in jail or have their futures limited because they smoked a doob. We have the highest incarceration rate in the world and a booming prison industry. An alphabet soup of militarized criminal agencies run all over the world. Civil Rights for EVERYONE have taken huge hits in the name of the WoD. They even got the military involved in it.

I already mentioned the struggle blacks had to overcome. Their basic rights - the right to vote, the right to own property, the right to various goverment services, their right to an equal footing under law, etc were all systematically denied them.

Yes, I do find gay marriage an absurd concept. How is it not? I find it absurd gays would elevate this ridiculous issue to the the same level as civil rights, Prohibition, abolition, or any other great cause. Look at the scale of what's at stake!

Gays have ALL the rights heteros do. We just refuse to make a new right - the right to marry someone of the same gender - to support this fringe group.

The homophobe comment rolls right off. I'm not some 18 year old trying to work out my alpha male status. Stereotypical comment for anyone supporting the gay agenda:)

Sammie, you say you and Mark got married with no intent of having children, HOWEVER, if you want me to dredge up posts, there have been more than a couple where you strongly hinted that you would like children. Don't even pretend you don't daydream of little Marks and Sammies running around. All your posts about marriage not having anything to do with procreation are BS. Your own natural instincts are calling the BS flag. You may not be thinking it, but you sure are feeling tick tock tick tock.

We're not a civilized nation but a decadent one where values and perogatives are caught up in trivialities. Everyone is trying to be so inoffensive they will support any fringe group's cause just to avoid being "intolerant." Yes, they are a fringe. I'm sure you called the right-wing militias "fringe" groups and they comprise an equal or larger portion of the population as gays.

[HHBizzle]

We're not a civilized nation but a decadent one where values and perogatives are caught up in trivialities.

Yes, we are far from a civilized nation.
The nordic countries are the only civilized ones!

[Hae-Yu]

I dunno about that anymore either. Nordics are revolting against immigration policies and it's turning violent. I would go for Costa Rica or Switzerland.

[HHBizzle]

Santa is real.

[thegreaterbad]

If you think being gay is a choice try choosing not to like chicks Thunder.

I know that being straight is not a choice for me. I have absolutley no control over liking chicks so much. Some times if Im watching TV and see some hot chick I get instantly aroused. It doesn't even have to be sexy. It could be a silly dawn commercial, but if the chick has a nice rack or ass; IM at the comp looking at porn rubbing on out. Its even harder to fight the feeling in real life... I could be at the store inline behind a chick and man... i just wanna bang her over the and drag her back to my cave so I can do durtay durtay things to her. Its primal and I can't help it at all... its just an impulse. Ass... titays... boner!

Im sure its the same for gays... I bet bizzles sees a nice package and is like ooooooooooooooooo.... I just wanna suck it!

Being gay is no more a defect than bad eyes sight. Its just the way they are... differnt than most... but not defective... car parts are defective... not people.

Come on... are we gonna say retarded people can't marry and have kids because it may be a finacial burden?

We don't call them defects.

Ok, I kind of get where youre coming from, but there is no need for details, we all pick up on subtleties....no need for details.....youre going to ruin my fantasy's :confused:

[Candii.blisS]

Santa is real.

No he isn't. I was a good girl all year and he still chucked coal at me this last christmas. :frown:

:rolleyes: a REAL santa would have given me my present. :mad: Asshole, I dont even have a chimney.

Anyways..

I know that being straight is not a choice for me.

that's a really good point. if you were born straight, why would you consider otherwise? if you don't like the idea of homosexuality so much, you should realize that nobody with your "straight" mindset would WANT to be gay.
which means its not a choice of perversion, its just how they are.

BUT its not a birth "defect". JUST cuz its different from what you're born with?

analogy: left handed, right handed. If you're right hand dominated, then good for you. since this world is right hand dominated, everything is already made for the righties... but just because you don't understand the lefties' dominant use of the left hand, it doesnt mean you have to speak out against objects that they'd use.. like.. left handed scissors. LEAVE THEM ALONE, LET THEM USE WHATEVER IS EFFICIENT FOR THEm. YOU HAVE YOUR SHIT, no need to bash the need for theirs. :rolleyes:

i like analogies :smile:

[Sammie]

Sammie, you say you and Mark got married with no intent of having children, HOWEVER, if you want me to dredge up posts, there have been more than a couple where you strongly hinted that you would like children. Don't even pretend you don't daydream of little Marks and Sammies running around. All your posts about marriage not having anything to do with procreation are BS. Your own natural instincts are calling the BS flag. You may not be thinking it, but you sure are feeling tick tock tick tock.
.

hahaha!

please go on. This proof I would like to see.
I have never wanted children. EVER.
I have no tick tick clock in me or little voice in my head telling me I should give birth, create another mini me or even carry on a blood line.

Mark and I are irresponsible and have been having unprotected sex for 11 years. We use certian messures to lessen this risk b/c I dont want to get knocked up. But due to this factor, I freak out everytime I'm late. I literally cringe at the thought of having a child. It terrifes me and literally carries nearly the same type of horror of receiving a cancer diagnosis. Literally its that negative of a thought process I go through when I'm late. Its like I'm waiting on the test results to tell me if I have some horrible illness.

I dont want kids regardless of what you believe. In fact I'm adamantly against it. Mark doesnt hold the same level of contemptment regarding it as I do. Personally I think he could go either way. He wouldnt freak out about having kids. He just doesnt really have much desire to and likes the benefits of being free of the responsiblity.


Now, I know I might offend some people here with my next statement (even further? already gone there eh?) so I apologize in advance but its simply to prove my point further.

I dont even really understand why people want children and breeders just plain annoy me. I always look in disgust when I see some lady who is not only carrying 3-4 kids around but obviously pregnant with another. That little voice goes off in my head "pfft, freaking breeders".

And when people tell me they are having kids I think they are insane. In fact, sometimes I just think its self centered and driven by ego.
And no, I dont want to hold your baby or see all the pictures of your kids. I dont want to hear all kinds of stories about your kids. I dont give a crap. Hold your own stinking baby.

Mark's sister is always trying to get me to hold the baby. I dont want the fat little drooling thing that shits its pants on my lap. Thank you but no thank you.

Yes, its a harsh view point and I may be over stating here without any kind of tone down but again its just to back up my point that Ultra's statement is utter bullshit.

You obviously do not know me that well. But you have made an assumption about me personally based on a stereo type. I'm a woman so I must want to procreate.

Now I know many people have kids here and I respect people's right to choose. I simply wanted to elaborate my real (and yes, unfortunately judgemental) thoughts on the matter, in order to prove how poorly misinformed your analysis is of me and my natural instict to bare children.

But stero type away. You've been on a role of that thoughout this thread.








Yes I realize this will come off harsh. But It also shows my own weaknesses, limitations and obviously my own actions of stereo typing people.
I'm no better than anyone esle here. I have my flaws.
My flaws may different than than yours, but they are flaws nonetheless.

The point is to recognize them. Your thoughts on this matter are hardly, let alone entirely, based in rationality or practicality. Your comments have shown there is a much deeper seeded reason for your positions. Those reactions are based in your gut talking, not your head. Rationality is not the driving force of your passionate position on this matter. Your rational is flawed yet you fail to even address it. You just keep going back to your gut "feelings" about the matter regarding how homosexuals are and what women are like.


Not all gays are the same. Gays dont think about only gay things. They dont define themselves as gays but as people.
Just as all women dont have a tick tock tick tock biological clock.

The fact that you lump bizzle and myself into litte sqaure holes shows that you have created with your own biases and limitations. You are conspiciously displaying your tendancy to think only in only black and white terms.
Your ego driven perception of the world is thus unnessicarly limiting a true understanding of humanity, the world and reality as a whole. Reality is not in your head and your ideas. Reality and truth are not subjective. And even if they were you would have to have reached a God like omnipotence to claim that you hold the key to such understanding.







We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.
- Anais Nin


Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding a truth. ~Ludwig Börne


Ultra I'm sure I bust your balls more than most. Its because I respect you as an intelligent person and expect more from you. I wouldnt bother responding if I didnt think you were a rational person that was capable of seeing through the rhetoric you spew.
And yes I spew it too. I know a lot of what I hold to be truths are at best misunderstandings and at worse ingrained or self serving convictions.

[thegreaterbad]

The fact that you lump bizzle and myself into litte sqaure holes shows that you have created with your own biases and limitations. You are conspiciously displaying your tendancy to think only in only black and white terms.
Your ego driven perception of the world is thus unnessicarly limiting a true understanding of humanity, the world and reality as a whole. Reality is not in your head and your ideas. Reality and truth are not subjective. And even if they were you would have to have reached a God like omnipotence to claim that you hold the key to such understanding.



Even though I am not at the caliber of the conversation at hand, she brings up a point anyone here can see, you are making slots and filling them with whoever you think goes there. You need to broaden youre outlook on people and the fact they are all different, so there is no real "SLOT" to put them in.

[Smashley]

I don't know Sammie... I love kids... They are the most beautiful people in the world. Full of wonder and honesty. Nothing like a 6 year old tellin me IM fat... LOL... I love it then I sit on them and chanse them around with the CLAW!!!!! hsahahaha.... they are great fun. Cna't wait to have some.

I guess Im just a big kid at heart.

oh and Bad I have never been very subtle.

[HHBizzle]

I don't know Sammie... I love kids... They are the most beautiful people in the world. Full of wonder and honesty. Nothing like a 6 year old tellin me IM fat... LOL... I love it then I sit on them and chanse them around with the CLAW!!!!! hsahahaha.... they are great fun. Cna't wait to have some.

I guess Im just a big kid at heart.

oh and Bad I have never been very subtle.

http://xs202.xs.to/xs202/06246/orly.jpg

[Candii.blisS]

I don't know Sammie... I love kids... They are the most beautiful people in the world. Full of wonder and honesty. Nothing like a 6 year old tellin me IM fat... LOL... I love it then I sit on them and chanse them around with the CLAW!!!!! hsahahaha.... they are great fun. Cna't wait to have some.

I guess Im just a big kid at heart.


awwww thats so cute.


....i like babies/kids too!... until they start talking =X

[Sammie]

I don't know Sammie... I love kids... They are the most beautiful people in the world. Full of wonder and honesty. Nothing like a 6 year old tellin me IM fat... LOL... I love it then I sit on them and chanse them around with the CLAW!!!!! hsahahaha.... they are great fun. Cna't wait to have some.

I guess Im just a big kid at heart.
.

The great things about kids is that they see the world so differently than adults.



I would like to maintain myself as the kid at heart. I think I was closer to the truth as a child than I am as an adult. The social and economic restraints were more apparent when I was younger.Things that used to appual me have become more palatable.
I think children are generally more attune to compassion than most adults who become hardened and jaded by the world. Perhaps that is why its the younger generations that are usually speaking out about human rights, leading progession and change.

However, I dont have a desire to reproduce and I'm not definately not facisnated by the "miracle" of birth.

[thegreaterbad]

I will give you the same advice I gave my friend before he got his GF pregnant because...get this: He liked the way it felt going inside her...What a dumass..... But the Advice: SAMMIE, WRAP IT BEFORE YOU TAP IT. Or at least send me an invitation to the baby shower:surprised



And Santa DOES NOT exist, I once waited for 5 hrs one night at the top of my stairs for that fat Fuck to deliver my presents. And he never showed, then I passed out on the stairs and my cunning parents snuck past me and set up my presents


Man, this thread is spiraling out of control, we have gone from Gay rights to Hae-Yu putting people in his special boxes, and now we are talking about Lil Sammies running amok through S Carolina.......Talk about Rabbit Holes...:question:

[Jethro]

Kids. I wish sometimes I could see the world through a child's eye again. They see things so simple. No hate, just simple wonder and love.
Example: This past week my grandmother passed away. She one of the major female role models in my life. I was present the nite she passed away, I was sitting by herside, holding her hand as she slept (coma). My three nephews 4, 3, and 2, came up and asked grandma to wake up. When she didn't, they looked at me for the reason why. I explained to them Grandma was very ill, tried, and would never wake up again. As I was explaining this to them I couldn't keep the tears from my eyes or the hurt out from my voice. All three of my nephews gave me hug at the same time and told me they loved me. They then proceeded to give Grandma, Grandpa, and everyone else hugs and love. To me, the kids sensed everyone needed the simple, inocent love of a child. For that I am thankful. They helped me in ways they will probally never understand.

Everyone has their beliefs and rights to think what they want and do what they please, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. As long as someone treats you with respect, who cares if they are gay, purple, have children or none. I have my beliefs. I have couple gay friends, but I do not support them being gay, but I support them as friends. I would never hold someone being gay against them. I see them a human first, along with everyone else in the world.

[Hae-Yu]

Sorry Sammie, I searched the forums & reread the posts that gave me that impression and I see how I took it wrong (the pet laws, MF's problems thread and a couple of others). When you read forums, you don't have that personal interaction so you have to piece things together into a picture. As often as not, you have to tear down things and rebuild much more frequently over forums as you do in person. So now I know you revile kids and that's why the procreation argument means nothing to you :wink:

As far as the gay topics, I thought about that this weekend and another friend pointed out that I enjoy speaking of news and debating politics. Perhaps the reason why my gay friends spoke/ speak of that is maybe the topic doesn't interest them so much but they are trying to engage me from my own interests. But since most don't really care about it, they have only a superficial ability to participate. I've had gf's do the same thing, some more successfully than others. So maybe the massive force of my personality warps people's behavior in such a way that it distorts my perception of them, since I'm standing at the center of the me-field.

One pigeon-hole you forgot: considering the letter, considering Bizzle's wording, he lumps all Christians into the same category. You forgot to mention that in your collection of stereotyping.

As far as "deep-seated hostility" there's no such thing. As far as "passion" about this issue, the only thing that gets my blood roiled is when I see this issue compared to the great struggles in history. Hate is too strong a word for something I consider largely irrelevant. Here's why it's really irrelevant. As gays push the issue, they will push more moderates into accepting the right-winger stance. If the courts force it, an amendment will pass.

Gays aren't asking for equal rights, they are asking for special rights. And special rights really irritates those of us who aren't special:frown: Just like "hate-crimes" laws which are vile legal constructions. And let's not forget that in many states, if he's fired for incompetence, he can sue and say he was discriminated against because he's gay.

What was that about equal rights again? He qualifies for "special minority group" status which greatly expands his bill of rights over my bill of rights. Gays have all the same rights straights have, plus a few extra.

Edit: I get tired of long posts too. I don't think anything substantial changed.