California Students Ban Pledge of Allegiance

[McTucket]

LOS ANGELES (Nov. 11) - Student leaders at a California college have touched off a furor by banning the Pledge of Allegiance at their meetings, saying they see no reason to publicly swear loyalty to God and the U.S. government.

The move by Orange Coast College student trustees, the latest clash over patriotism and religion in American schools, has infuriated some of their classmates -- prompting one young woman to loudly recite the pledge in front of the board on Wednesday night in defiance of the rule.

"America is the one thing I'm passionate about and I can't let them take that away from me," 18-year-old political science major Christine Zoldos told Reuters.

"The fact that they have enough power to ban one of the most valued traditions in America is just horrible," Zoldos said, adding she would attend every board meeting to salute the flag.

The move was led by three recently elected student trustees, who ran for office wearing revolutionary-style berets and said they do not believe in publicly swearing an oath to the American flag and government at their school. One student trustee voted against the measure, which does not apply to other student groups or campus meetings.

The ban follows a 2002 ruling by a federal appeals court in San Francisco that said forcing school children to recite the pledge was unconstitutional because of the phrase "under God." The U.S. Supreme Court struck down the ruling on procedural grounds but left the door open for another challenge.

"That ('under God') part is sort of offensive to me," student trustee Jason Ball, who proposed the ban, told Reuters. "I am an atheist and a socialist, and if you know your history, you know that 'under God' was inserted during the McCarthy era and was directly designed to destroy my ideology."

Ball said the ban largely came about because the trustees didn't want to publicly vow loyalty to the American government before their meetings. "Loyalty ought to be something the government earns through performance, not through reciting a pledge," he said.

Martha Parham, a spokeswoman for the Coast Community College District, said her office had no standing on the student board and took no position on the flag salute ban.

"If their personal belief is that they don't want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, the district certainly isn't going to dictate what they do," she said.

More than 28,000 students attend the community college, located in conservative Orange County, California, south of Los Angeles.

Sophomore Chris Belanger, one of several students who attended the meeting to support keeping the pledge, waved an American flag and accused the board of "radical views and anti-Americanism."

11/10/06 07:34 EST

[Sammie]

i dont agree with bans

but i do agree that there is no reason to publically pledge loyalty to god or the nation

[Smashley]

KILL SAMMIE NOW! KILL SAMMIE NOW! KILL SAMMIE NOW! KILL SAMMIE NOW! KILL SAMMIE NOW! KILL SAMMIE NOW! KILL SAMMIE NOW! KILL SAMMIE NOW! KILL SAMMIE NOW! KILL SAMMIE NOW! KILL SAMMIE NOW!


Everyone get behind my new political agenda! She is unpatriotic and therefore must die!!

KILL SAMMIE NOW! KILL SAMMIE NOW! KILL SAMMIE NOW! KILL SAMMIE NOW!

[McTucket]

so sammie instead of banning, just make it optional? when its time to say the pledge, those who want to will, and vice versa? or does having a set time to say the pledge violate peoples' constitutional rights? how do you fix this so everyones happy?

i think if you dont want to say it, just dont. i think if i had to, i would just "ban" it from schools, and in its place, have a minute or two of relection time or something so you can talk to your higher power, twidle your thumbs, pick a wedgie, or say the pledge.... thats the best thing i can think of that makes all parties happy...

[Candii.blisS]

when its time to say the pledge, those who want to will, and vice versa?


i think to BAN the pledge of allegiance is ridiculous.

i want this to go to the supreme court so they can say that BANNING it altogether could also be a violation of rights for those who want to plege to the country they live in. to take away such a thing is fucked up, and it's gotta be unconsitutual. hypocritical bastards.

i strongly doubt it's "required" anyway, NOBODY gets u in trouble for not saying it.

but these fucking students live in this country. it's not like they're forcing you to say it in ur homes. its at a COLLEGE, probably public, so if they dont believe in god, just grin and fucking bear it, and accept that's how MOST americans pledge to their nation - traditionally in classroom settings.

they don't believe in god? good for them, all they have to do is not say the god part, hell, dont say the pledge at all. the LEAST they can do though is to stand the fuck up during the pledge and just show some fucking respect for this nation that they are given the rightss to fucking be as ignorant as they are. but no, they want to go and BAN it? fuck that shit. why dont you fuckign leave the country then.

and to that atheist/socialist, its okay to have those beliefs, JUST LIKE IT'S constitutional for others to have beliefs in our federal government and our majority's belief in at least _A_ god, to have the decency to recite the pledge.

[Smashley]

Land of the free home of the brave... cept you can't say the pledge or ass fuck!!

[Triple_6]

Candii, you need to just calm down. Calling people ignorant who don't agree with you is the supreme mark of ignorance and adding so much vulgarity only makes you seem like a child. The same argument you give to them I can just as easily give to you. If you want to say the Pledge so much then DO IT, but don't force people who don't want to, to have to conform to your ideals. And yes, my teachers did make me say the Pledge growing up. If I don't believe in God why should I have to publicly swear to his presence? Why do I have to regularly affirm my allegiance to the United States of America? Isn't everyday in public all throughout school for 13 years enough? The fact is those kids are student leaders elected to their positions, and if the student body dislikes their policies, they will be voted out in the next election and their decisions over-ruled.

Just as an addendum, you don't understand their frame of mind because you've never thought in socialist terms before. They don't see the world the way you do. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes them different. It definitely doesn't make them ignorant.

[McTucket]

this country is awesome because it generally doesnt force you to do anything you dont want to. freedoms of speech and what not... some people dont want to say the pledge of allegiance... why force them?

[Smashley]

y ban it? Because they can and it will make them seem cool. Then they will get laid.

[Candii.blisS]

If you want to say the Pledge so much then DO IT, but don't force people who don't want to, to have to conform to your ideals. And yes, my teachers did make me say the Pledge growing up. If I don't believe in God why should I have to publicly swear to his presence? Why do I have to regularly affirm my allegiance to the United States of America? Isn't everyday in public all throughout school for 13 years enough? The fact is those kids are student leaders elected to their positions, and if the student body dislikes their policies, they will be voted out in the next election and their decisions over-ruled.

Just as an addendum, you don't understand their frame of mind because you've never thought in socialist terms before. They don't see the world the way you do. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes them different. It definitely doesn't make them ignorant.

during morning time at school during the "pledge", i dont say the pledge, for your information. so its not like im DYING to say the fucking pledge, i _RESPECT_ it.

i think the BANNING of the PLEDGE was a bad idea. i respect in all their right not to say the pledge, but for them to go out and FORBID others from having their time to do so is just ridiculous.

ITS MY OPINION that it was ridiculous. i started my reply as "I THINK."

i never said they were wrong. i never said that they should be forced to say the pledge. and i never said that they're ignorant because i dont agree with them.
i dont get why you're assuming things, maybe its my syntax.

in fact, i know exactly where they're coming from. for instance, i completely agreed with the banning of "school prayer", even as a christian. so how the fuck am i ignorant and only see from my side?

"time devoted to prayer" is unconstitutional because that encourages religion, which violates everyone's right to freedom of exercise/belief in religion. so school prayer is justly banned.
whereas saying the pledge to respect your country, meaning pledging allegiance to your nation, for crying out loud, should NOT BE TAKEN AWAY at a public place such as college.

its not that i disagree with any banning in general. im just upset that just because the word GOD is in the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE to the UNITED STATES they'd ban it at a public place [noting that its VOLUNTARY, nobody forces u to say it. and i would prefer it to stay "voluntary." ...nothing mandatory, or REMOVED COMPLETELY] its not like this pledge says, WE LOVE YOU GOD WE PRAY TO YOU. they dont encourage religion at all. and its VOLUNTARY, so why take it the fuck away?

and again, i _NEVER_ said that they must/should say the pledge.

it'd be HORRIBLE TO FORCE THEM. read what i said, not ONCE did i say they must force them. i just said it's at least respectful to stand up. hey, but i didnt even say people should be forced to do that either. they can completely shun "under god"... that is NOT my problem or my concern.

to PREVENT the pledge altogether, is the FORCE. FORCED to not say the pledge.

shit this has to have been a supreme court case before.






you responded to my opinion in a way as if i said, people should be forced to say the pledge, or that their socialist viewpoint is wrong. if you were to have even comprehended where i was coming from, i'll requote
"and to that atheist/socialist, its okay to have those beliefs"

"all they have to do is not say the god part, hell, dont say the pledge at all."

so.. what the hell?

[Smashley]

who cares.. It's a bunch of hippies in Cali. I guarnatee none of them would stop me from saying the pledge. I'd have 200 people with me all saying in rite in their face! IN TEH FACE!!!

[Candii.blisS]

yeah, i could care less honestly, its just some college in cali, nothing national. i was just pissed cuz people were shoving words that i didnt say in my mouth. eh.

[Smashley]

U should be used to people shoving things inn your mouth! :badgrin:

[Triple_6]

I feel like I'm arguing with a little kid. If you didn't mean what I took your post to mean then I think you need to try and articulate your thoughts more coherently. You said and I quote "...that they are given the rightss to fucking be as ignorant as they are." You just called them ignorant. What other context do you have to perceive they are ignorant other than the aforementioned policy for which we are discussing, and the little background info given to us about them in the article? You don't know anything else about these students. You are calling them ignorant because they happen to be socialists and athiests and don't believe in the public swearing of Allegiance to both the U.S. and God. There is no other way for anybody that read your post to take it. If they are ignorant because you think they are clashing with the ideals of this country and its Constitution, I would urge you to consider those are based on freedom of the individual, not forced pledgings.

but for them to go out and FORBID others from having their time to do so is just ridiculous.

That's not what they are doing. If you had read the article more closely you would see they are banning it from the student meetings because some members find it offensive. You can say the Pledge at any other time during the day if you like. Sing it in the shower, stand on the corner and scream it to high heaven, nobody cares. That's your right as an American. But nobody should be forced to say it, nobody should be forced to stand up while it occurs, and nobody should have to say it while omitting the parts they disagree with, or saying those parts while "grinning and bearing it". They were FORCED to say it before and now they don't have to. They didn't ban the Pledge everywhere and at every point in the school, only at student meetings. It's not such a big deal. No reason to cuss and look stupid, no reason to damage your capslock key.

[McTucket]

okay so what would you do if it said.. " i pledge allegiance to the flag, of the united states of america. and to the republic for which it stands... one nation, under KIM JONG IL... indivisble.. blah blah blah.... i bet you'd change your story then. apparently just because many american traditions involve God in some shape or form, its been around a long time, so theres no need to change tradition. FACE THE FACTS. not everyone believes in God. it offends them when they have to deal with God, when they dont want to, during their daily routines. thats not america. america is all about letting people do what they want>>> FREEDOM>> if you may.


heres what you fucking do to settle this.

throw up a vote. see what the MAJORITY of the American public stands.

a one time vote.

then move on from there.


Originally Posted by Candii.blisS
"and to that atheist/socialist, its okay to have those beliefs"

"all they have to do is not say the god part, hell, dont say the pledge at all."


or they could just not stand there while everyone else is saying it and feel shitty about themselves, or what not.

[Candii.blisS]

its just a stupid meeting at some college, i dont give a fuck. it's not like i'll be affected in ANY way.

and if people have the right to ban the pledge, i have the right to say someone is ignorant. its my opinion, god damn it.


and the only point that i want to make:
i never said that people should be forced to say the pledge...
which was in response to your attack on my opinion.

coherent enough?


ps: i AM a little girl.

[McTucket]

just because you're not affected it shouldnt matter to you anyway eh....

[Sammie]

what the world needs now is a good A bomb

that would put shit back in perspective :wink:

[McTucket]

yeah, a bomb sammies face.

[Smashley]

just because you're not affected it shouldnt matter to you anyway eh....

Yeah. I have enough shit going on in my life to worry about what hippies are doing 3000 miles away. Fuck em!