NWYSP open for business

[gramps]

Yeah yeah, long time no see....well I been busy. Any who, my web site is now open and with just a couple of things left to fix, I thought I would pop in say hi....HI!....and ask you to take a look around and let me know what you think.

Northwest Youth Sports Photography (http://NWYSP.com)

[Sammie]

congrats gramps!!

I've been wanting to talk with you to see how things are coming along.
I'm headed off to work atm but I'll PM you later.

[gramps]

I will be sitting by my mail box anxiously awaiting your letter...and thanks for stopping by...nice to know at least one GNG'er cares

[Animal]

Hey! I care! I even went so far as to read your first FAQ on why there are more pictures of one kid and not another:biggrin:. I must say... you handled that question gracefully.

[Sammie]

crap i never did get around to emailing you. I had a very busy day yesterday and when i got home finally i just passed out.
no sleep for 5 days caught up with me.

I'm about to head off to work again but I was interested in what gear you are using. How you get paid (per event or per picture). How much you usually charge. How you got your name out there. Did you start out just doing it for free?

Do you do any other venues besides baseball or sports?

The professional photographer that was at the event I was at this past weekend was paid nicely i'm sure. I have just as much gear if not more and my pictures were definately on par with his.
I heard that many of these corporate events pay 20 grand plus. And to top it off they usually put you up in a 5 star hotel.

I'm interested in getting my foot in the door. I dont want to quit my job or anything because I make good money but some extra cash would be nice. Also if Mark was interested, he could change professions.

I have a friend who owns a soccer store and he goes to all the events to sell his stuff. He also plays in an adult league. I've been considering starting there and then branching out.

I was hoping you might be able to give me some tips both from a technical stand pt and from a business stand pt.

Thanks

[Thunder]

Great site gramps. I grew up with shin guards welding to my legs so I can really appreciate the photography.

[gramps]

Thanks for the notes guys, I was just wanting to say hi and see if anyone remembered me.

**Warning** those of you who have no interest in photography might as well move along....I got a bit long winded.


Mr. Sammie,

Let me start with a bit of background. Around these parts NSP is the dominate player here. http://www.4nsp.com/ I really have no idea how many photographers they employ, but its enough that they can cover at least 4 different locations at once. They also have the ability to turn around photos in a day...shoot today and sell paper copies tomorrow. With that said, in my opinon, most of the pictures they produce are crap. Last year at the baseball allstar games they brought out a picture of a kid where he copped off his head. But since they are the dominate player they do most of the team photos around these parts and the major tournaments.

When I decided I wanted to turn semipro I wanted to find a niche that I was good at and where there is not a ton of competation. (I am not giving up my day job either, but I love photography and its something that I could continue to do in my retirement years)

Team photos pays real well. Like in the example of Clark County Youth football, shot by NSP, the average sale was in the ballpark of $15-25 per kid. (I have nothing to back that up except the information I got from a small sampling of parents I talked to at a practice.) Still $15-25 per kid and 3000 kids in the league, there is a bit of money to be made. But with the big money comes big competation. There are tons of folks who want to shoot a league's team photos. And why not? Its cash in the bank. Collect money before you even shoot the photos so it really doesnt matter if you are the crappiest photographer ever. Cash in hand baby.

So, niche market, little competation...its not Team photos, or is it. Will come back to that in a moment. At every major tournament, there is an offical photographer on site...again competation. So I thought, who is covering regular season games? Noone. What about the kids that are not on the allstar teams? I guess that will be me. There is the niche. Even the allstars are not being covered in the regular season games. And while I have not shot a single photo as a pro yet, I know that there has to be some money in this. Its just not guaranteed. I am actually going to have to work for the cash and be good at it.

But I have limitations. First off, I am a one man show. So there is only so much that I can cover. I thought about taking on a Little League this spring, but I dont get off early enough to have the light to shoot afternoon games and with 700 kids in a LL that is just more Saturdays than I care to commit to.

I have 2 kids that play sports and I dont want to miss out on their games. I am probably going to miss a few here and there, but they are growing up way to fast for me to miss their childhood.

There is the expenses. Taking photos on paper out to a field with no guarantee of a sale is risky. Sure I will sell some, I figured if I put photos into the hands of parents I would probably have a 60-70% sell through. Its still cash out of pocket for a future return.

Most of this stuff so far is not what you asked about, but it is stuff you will need to consider when you plan on how you are going to begin. What are you going to shoot? How much competation is there for that particular job? Who are the players (photographers) now and what are they doing and what do they charge? How big of a job can you bid? What kind of expenses are you going to incur and what is the potential risk? How much time is involved? You not only have the game time shoot, but the post production to work on. And I think the biggest is how are you, a newbie, going to win a bid against a seasoned professional? My answer to that is...I am not going to compete with him. I will take the jobs that are too small for them to bother with.

Thats the background of what I was looking at last year. Last spring, I didnt know much of photoshop and knew that I needed to learn it to properly edit the photos. And while I learned a ton, photoshop is too slow to process the hundreds of photos I take every game. Last year I used, I hate to admit it, Picasa (http://picasa.google.com/) most of the time. It did an ok job but its lightning fast. This year I am going to buy Lightroom (http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/lightroom/). Adobe did a good job with this. Most of the photoshop features and picasa fast. I have been working with the beta and love what I have seen.

Then there is the cost of producing the pictures. You know, nearly everyone has a computer nowadays. So I thought, I will just post photos online and let folks order what they want. It will not sell as many photos, but its going to keep my costs under control. Then I found Smugmug. (Link to their main page on mine and I get a referral!) For $35 a year they will host an unlimited number of photos. There is a bandwidth limitation but I never hit it. For $150 a year, and 15% of the sale, they will handle ALL of the order process, host an unlimited number of pics, no bandwidth restriction, handle all of the customer service. For 15% of an order, they can have it. I dont want to deal with the order taking and Customer Service and what not. I want to shoot pics.

So last year, I did give away the photos. I bought the $35 smugmug account, bought my web address, ordered my free business cards (http://www.vistaprint.com/) and went shooting. I knew that I wasnt ready to turn pro. I needed photos to practice on in photoshop and needed to develop a post production process. I needed to learn how to shoot the games, where to be to get the best shots and what shots I and other parents liked. Last year was all about a learning curve and advertisement. I gave away about 700 business cards during baseball season. I had a few requests to come shoot football and soccer. And I still have a couple of moms hounding me to shoot basketball even though I dont have the lens to shoot indoors. Last year gave me the confidence and experience that I needed to be able to compete this year. It also got me to talking to people to find the niches that are not being covered.

I learned that Little League gigs are highly competative, but the "select teams" like Junior Baseball and Cal Ripkin leagues dont offer a league photographer. Each coach needs to make his own arrangements. Its only 12 kids, but its $15 to $25 from this team of 12 and that team of 12. Those contacts will lend me to book game photos, where I am shooting 24 kids at a time.

My website is not quite finished. I sent an email to everyone in my address book asking them to take a look and let me know of anything I missed or needs to be fixed. The "needs to be fixed" is secondary, what I wanted from them was to know that I was starting up. And I got a few responses like the owners name of the local sporting goods store and a referral.

Giving away the photos last year was well worth the coming rewards. No I didnt make a dime, but I did take all the tax writeoffs of a home based business of travel and expenses, my web site, internet connection, cell phone and household expenses so it wasnt a complete freebie. And knowledge is something you cant put a price on.

As to do I do anything other than sports...like weddings or portraits? Nah, that is too much like a job. I want to stay with what I love and that passion will come out in the quality of the final product.

So the advice I would offer you is to do what you love, otherwise its just another part time job. Start off as a serious amateur. Get a web space like Smugmug for $35 bucks so you have very limited expenses. Digital images cost you nothing, and you already have the internet connection.

If you want to shoot sports, and have friends with kids (or your own kids) just go down to the park and ask permission of the coach to shoot on the sideline or foulline. Never been turned down yet. Your thought of starting with a buddy on a sports team is a great place to start, but you will find that kid photos will pay better. Hand out cards and talk to people. I bet the guys on your buddies team have kids and would love some pics.

If you want to shoot portraits or products, get yourself a backdrop (http://www.betterphoto.com/exploring/MakingBackDrops.asp) or lightbox (http://www.pbase.com/wlhuber/light_box_light_tent)
and start with people you know. Get the hang of it. Look at what your competation is, how and what they are doing and what they are charging. And look for holes what they are doing. Where can you fit in with as little competation as possible...at least to start.

[Sammie]

gramps thank you so much for the detailed info.
I'm Mrs. Sammie but I'll forgive you for calling me a man :p :lol:

I am also using the beta lightroom and I love it. It makes my work flow a lot easier although I have to admit that I am still learning photoshop. Some things I knew from using Corel but they are definately different programs.

I intend to get a domain/host, webpage and business cards at a bare minimum. I am lucky enough to have a friend who will supply me with domain/host for free and another who has offered to build me a site free of charge (he does great work but I really just want something simple).

I love the advice about the print ordering and customer service. All I want to do is shoot (in general) and I would rather have people order through another company. I had originally thought of subbing my print jobs out to the local photography store,that way people would choose their print size and paper type. I have no intention of printing and selling on site.

With my current job I am not really allowed to have a second job. I can, technically, but its frowned upon and its heavy regulated (a paperwork nightmare every year). The SEC and NASD requires full disclosure to ensure there are not any conflicts of interest. So I intend to run any business entirely through my husband.

I dont know if I have a niche of the type of photos I like to take. I just like to shoot. Sports isnt my passion by any means and not only do I not have kids, I dont really like them. *giggle
But a good friend of mine owns a soccer store and he has been dealing with all the coaches for years and often acts as a ref or assistant coach as well. In other words he has a lot of connections and can help me get my foot in the door.
I'm not sure about who covers these events but I will do some digging to find out.

In addtion, since he owns his own store (family business for the last 20 yrs or so) I'm sure I could put some framed photos and business cards in his store.
So its seems like a logical starting pt. I dont have any huge plans atm, but would like to get my feet wet. I have a very well paying job but I wouldnt mind some side money and eventually I think it could be good retirement income.

I also have a friend who is the superintendent of the national park who has been begging me to commission work to them. It seems like an easy process. She gives the ok and I can place business cards and photos to sell at the park. I doubt I would sell a ton of photos but its free space and not a bad deal.

I plan to start slow and branch out but one thing I;ve learned in life is, its all about who you know so utilizing my network is probably the best starting place.

I have a lot of money invested in equipment and if I never made a penny off of it I wouldnt care. Its something that I have always found challenging and rewarding but I also wouldnt shy away from off setting some costs of the equipment through gigs, selling prints and tax write offs.

I appreciate you sharing with me. Experience and good advice are priceless. :biggrin:

btw: you never told me what youre shooting with. primes? zoom? what mm's and f/? camera? tripod? monopod?

[Phenix]

Gramps, I have a question. Do you have the picture from your first page, with the two kids holding hands, WITHOUT the text in it? I would LOVE to get a copy of that.

[Sammie]

Gramps, I have a question. Do you have the picture from your first page, with the two kids holding hands, WITHOUT the text in it? I would LOVE to get a copy of that.

walks away slowly................... :lol:




gramps one thing I have noticed on your singled out player pics is that the depth of field is really deep. What f stop are you using?
I think it would be nice to have the background blurred in a nice bokeh in order to get a more personal feel for these types of shots.
The pics are great but in some I felt like the background was distracting. I'm certainly not an expert, it may just be my personal taste.

[gramps]

Phenix, that is a pic of my son and his then girlfriend and what kind of a father would I be without the original. Out of all the photos its my favorite as well. Here ya go (http://nwysp.smugmug.com/gallery/1795025#89415047).

Mrs. Sammie... I am so ashamed. My sincere apologizies. The depth of field is indeed wide open on football and soccer pics. The kids move so quickly trying to get a consistant lock is tough. With a short depth of field, most every pic would be and show slightly out of focus. The large depth of field is a bit more forgiving. On baseball, I do reduce the field from time to time...but again the depth is a cheat. I am shooting a college Lacross game this weekend. Perhaps I will take a chance and use the aperture priority instead of the shutter priority setting. **shudders**

I shoot with a Nikon and the 70-300mm lens has not been off my camera since I got it. I have a tripod and for sports, threw it away. I will use a monopod from time to time, mostly just practiceing for next month with I get a new 50-500 lens. (http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.asp?navigator=3) The crop will give me about another 200mm but the 300 just is a bit too short to get the outfield on a regulation size field. Every pic on my site is shot with a 70-300 nikkor f4-5.6.

[Sammie]

no apologies necessary :D



So youre getting the Bigma!! Sweet! I've heard great things about that lens.


btw: we added an art forum several months ago. it would be great if you would share some of your favorite works there

[Hae-Yu]

Those are great, Gramps!
I picked up the photography bug a while ago too, but nothing at your level. It's good you are starting that business too.

My boss has a very similar setup to yours. His kid plays baseball and he bought a Konika-Minolta DSLR and was able to use all his old lenses. Anyway, he took tons of pics at the games and posted them online, helped do the slideshows for the big games, and so on. Family and friends of players really got into it and he was making a little extra money on the side.

I think your site is a good jumping off point and "outsourcing" the backend business to Smugmug.

-UltraV

[gramps]

I had not even noticed that forum. My how we have grown up over the last....what 10 years now?

Art, thanks for the kind words. And its good to see you still around.